Installing A New Timing Set Tomorrow. '02 4.6 Degree?

HawkX66 · Mar 23, 2017

My Cloyes timing set arrives today, so I'm taking the day off tomorrow to install it. Am I correct in assuming that because it's a non-adjustable gear set up, that degreeing it would be a waste of time? If not, why would I degree it if I can't adjust anything?
I have the factory Ford manual on DVD and the FRPP install instructions that I'm planning on using. I know you don't want to turn the cam or the crank with the gears/chain off, but at the end of the day am I right in assuming:
1. You put the keyed cam gears on only one way besides inside out.
2. You can only put the keyed crank gear on one way besides inside out.
3. If you have the chain and gears marked for timing, that as long as you get them lined up before you turn it over that all is good?
4. I'll lube the cam, gears and tensioners with the same oil that I have in the crank case. No assembly lube like I use to rebuild engines right?

I plan on turning it over by hand when I'm finished so I can tell if there are any PTV issues.

Thanks for any comments.

wmburns · Mar 23, 2017

Are you using the OTC special purpose tools to hold the cam?

Are you planning to remove the cam followers or not?

The BEST advice I can give you is to FOLLOW the Ford instructions EXACTLY. Don't skip any steps. The order of the steps are important and some of the crank moving steps are easy to over look.

If doing the job without the holding tool and the cam followers are still in place remember the the cams can and do move under valve spring pressure once the chains are removed.

Take pictures before removing anything. After the chains are back on, take pictures of the chains and the cam marks to validate the timing alignment.

HawkX66 · Mar 23, 2017

wmburns said:
Are you using the OTC special purpose tools to hold the cam?

Are you planning to remove the cam followers or not?

The BEST advice I can give you is to FOLLOW the Ford instructions EXACTLY. Don't skip any steps. The order of the steps are important and some of the crank moving steps are easy to over look.

If doing the job without the holding tool and the cam followers are still in place remember the the cams can and do move under valve spring pressure once the chains are removed.

Take pictures before removing anything. After the chains are back on, take pictures of the chains and the cam marks to validate the timing alignment.

I ordered the OTC tool, but it won't get here in time unfortunately. The price on Amazon dropped to $30 too. It's easy enough to remove the followers, so I will. I'm planning on following the Ford directions line for line. It doesn't look bad at all. I'm a picture nut, so there will be plenty as I go.
I appreciate the response. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow hopefully.

wmburns · Mar 23, 2017

IF all of the roller followers have been removed, THEN PTV contact isn't possible. As such the procedures become sooooooo much simpler. Just line up the dots to the marked chains and call it a day. Recommend taking pictures of the final product before re-installing the front timing cover.

Further with the roller followers removed, the cam won't try to turn from spring tension. So the OTC holding tool won't be needed as well.

Recommend removing the roller followers before taking the chain off. This makes it possible to turn the crank to make it easier to compress the springs.

HawkX66 · Mar 23, 2017

wmburns said:
IF all of the roller followers have been removed, THEN PTV contact isn't possible. As such the procedures become sooooooo much simpler. Just line up the dots to the marked chains and call it a day. Recommend taking pictures of the final product before re-installing the front timing cover.

Further with the roller followers removed, the cam won't try to turn from spring tension. So the OTC holding tool won't be needed as well.

Recommend removing the roller followers before taking the chain off. This makes it possible to turn the crank to make it easier to compress the springs.

Excellent. Then taking off the followers is a no brainer. It should be 50 degrees in my garage by 9 am and I just can't see this taking more than a few hours. Yep, just cursed myself. I know...

wmburns · Mar 23, 2017

Also recommend taking off one or two cam caps to look for evidence of oil starvation. IF found it's vital to find the root cause. If this were my car I would be worried about oil flow considering the previous failures.

Remember there will NEVER be a better time to replace the oil pump than when the chain is being replaced as well.

If there's debris in the oil pan if not removed could lead to a short service life.

HawkX66 · Mar 23, 2017

Thankfully the kit showed up today.

Made in the USA. Nice! It all came nicely packaged. I opened it for pics.

Nice ratcheting adjusters.

wmburns said:
Also recommend taking off one or two cam caps to look for evidence of oil starvation. IF found it's vital to find the root cause. If this were my car I would be worried about oil flow considering the previous failures.

Remember there will NEVER be a better time to replace the oil pump than when the chain is being replaced as well.

If there's debris in the oil pan if not removed could lead to a short service life.

I was thinking about the oil pump. I might grab one tomorrow and throw it in. Good idea.
I already pulled the cam caps. The only problem this motor really had was poor oil changes from the looks of everything internally. I'm sure that's why the timing set wore out if it did like I think it did.
I'm going to try to look closer at the oil passages if I can see them.

HawkX66 · Mar 23, 2017

This was what I found under the valve covers. Ugly, I know. I did what I could to clean it up after I took these pics.

HawkX66 · Mar 25, 2017

Well that sux... I put the timing chain kit in today without too much of a hassle. The only issue was the drivers side chain was a little tight. I fired it up and everything sounded great. No more cold start rattle. I was psyched thinking that was the issue. Nope... Noise came back after it warmed up.
The timing chain needed to be done. It was smoked. The drivers side chain had worn down through the tensioner and into the actual adjuster.
Now that everything else is quiet, I can hear the original noise better. It sounds like it's coming from the center of the motor towards the back. I wonder if it's something tranny related echoing into the back of the motor. It's a consistent noise that I can always replicate at the same rpm depending on the gear and load. Nah. It can't be that. It will happen if you let the car warm up without moving it.
Bah...

HawkX66 · Mar 27, 2017

If I remove all the valve lash adjusters again and blow through each one of the oil feed holes, will that completely blow out my heads if there's an obstruction? Is there another way with the heads on? I feel like my problem is an oil sludge issue after seeing the crap that was in my chain adjusters... Friggin' people not doing basic engine maintenance... When I did the timing chains I cleaned the heads and everything else that had shellac and sludge on it real well and changed the oil before starting it. I also ran a 1/2 quart of Mystery oil. On Sunday I ran Motor Medic Engine flush and changed the oil again with Motorcraft 5w-30. Plenty of oil pressure.
Here's some pics of what I found when I had it apart:

A little sludge in the left adjuster...

After cleaning:

Some Scan tool screen grabs:

HawkX66 · Mar 28, 2017

So I guess I'm pulling the heads off this weekend. My 69 is start to get pissed that I'm not working on it... No other thoughts on this one?

wmburns · Mar 28, 2017

Yes. You won't want to hear this. But knowing what I know now, I would never do a 4.6 modular motor head job with the motor in the car. IMO it's less over all work to pull the motor and do the work on the stand.

Besides. Based upon the pictures posted I think you may find other things wrong with this motor and end up pulling it anyway. If this were my project likely I would just get a whole salvage yard motor and stay out of the motor rebuilding business anyway. I suspect in the end you will end up spending less $$ anyway.

You can afford to get a higher mileage motor and put the new timing set on it that you already own.

squeak93 · Mar 28, 2017

Looking at that oil sludge I would pull it and either rebuild or replace as wmburns suggested.

HawkX66 · Mar 29, 2017

That sludge really bothered me from the moment I pulled the valve covers. I decided that I'm definitely going for the engine pull this weekend. I ordered the head gaskets etc yesterday from Summit, so they should be here in time. My plan is to drop the motor and trans from the bottom and go from there.
With any luck, the lower end will be ok, but at least I'll be able to pull the oil pan and do a full clean out. It will let me check out the pistons, rings and bearings too.
I don't like going with boneyard motors only because you really have no idea what you're getting. Even if it's warrantied, you've still put all your labor into a swap only to hear a bearing rap. I'd rather go through what I have and know that everything is within spec or new.

squeak93 · Mar 29, 2017

I've done two bone yard motors and had great luck. You have to shop around and be willing to drive.

Pull it all apart, if your bearings look similar to the heads you need to do a full tear down/overhaul or rebuild. I'd be more concerned with the oil galleys in the block and heads both (passage ways). Sure you can clean the sludge off of the surfaces but only a hot tank is going to get that crap out of everything else.

HawkX66 · Mar 29, 2017

squeak93 said:
I've done two bone yard motors and had great luck. You have to shop around and be willing to drive.

Pull it all apart, if your bearings look similar to the heads you need to do a full tear down/overhaul or rebuild. I'd be more concerned with the oil galleys in the block and heads both (passage ways). Sure you can clean the sludge off of the surfaces but only a hot tank is going to get that crap out of everything else.

I hear you. I'm sure there are a ton of good boneyard motors. I'm a boneyard junkie for the record. I just don't use engines that I can't see and hear run. I don't care what the promises and guarantees are anymore. I got burned on a "machine shop built" 502 last year. Turned out to be a stock 489 truck motor made to look pretty. The guy I bought it from got screwed by the shop. Luckily he made it right for me.
It'll be a bare block by Sat night unless I have to work o/t. As long as the crank and cylinder walls are good, my plan is to put bearings and rings in. It'll be cleaned completely first of course. I agree about the oil passages. I won't know anything for sure until I get it apart though

wmburns · Mar 29, 2017

IMO the most important detail is to have the motor on an engine stand where you have full access to repair/inspect all aspects of the motor. Access that would not be possible with the motor in the car.

I too am a junkyard motor junkie. I tend to go for low mileage unit from wrecked cars. Then at least you know the motor was running right before the wreck. However, I never take the salvage yard's word for the mileage. My recommendation is to run a CarFax report on the donor VIN. Then you will have a reasonable idea of the honesty of the salvage yard.

HawkX66 · Mar 30, 2017

wmburns said:
IMO the most important detail is to have the motor on an engine stand where you have full access to repair/inspect all aspects of the motor. Access that would not be possible with the motor in the car.

I too am a junkyard motor junkie. I tend to go for low mileage unit from wrecked cars. Then at least you know the motor was running right before the wreck. However, I never take the salvage yard's word for the mileage. My recommendation is to run a CarFax report on the donor VIN. Then you will have a reasonable idea of the honesty of the salvage yard.

She'll be on the engine stand by Sunday for sure. No matter what, I have to pull the motor, so we'll see what it looks like on the stand and go from there.
Bearings are cheap if the crank is good, but of course Ford is using torque to yield bolts that you only use once. Nice... So if you just want to check the bearings out, you have to buy new bolts. How do you use Plastigauge to check for tolerances if you can only torque them once?

Here's one of the last motors I built. It's a .060 over 396. I'm building a 494ci for my 69 right now (2nd pic). It's an 8.0L (489ci) block bored .020. Lunati roller set & 502 heads. The original born with 396 for the 69 is bagged and in the corner. Never bored or touched.

HawkX66 · Apr 3, 2017

Lots going on this weekend, but the engine is on the stand. I even had to buy a new stand to put one of my big blocks on so I could put the 4.6 on one of the smaller stands I had. I pulled the oil pan and it was actually pretty clean. No sludge. I was real surprised. There was a shellac like coating on the crank counter weights though. I'll probably pull the heads off tonight.
Out the bottom is definitely the way to go in my opinion. I wouldn't have found the upside down broken lowering spring if I didn't disassemble the a-arms either... So now new 2" drop front springs are on the list too.
Here's a few pics:

HawkX66 · Apr 4, 2017

It's down to the short block now and nothing is jumping out at me with a couple of exceptions. It's a smaller detail, but see if you can see it in these pictures. It's pretty obvious when you see it. I hope it's that simple... It was mentioned as a possibility, but it's really hard to believe knowing the sound it was making. The intake gaskets looked pretty hammered in a couple of spots too. I'm pulling the valve springs out tonight to check things out. Overall, the short block doesn't look bad at all. The valves look like it was running pretty well. No blow by etc. One of the cam lobes has some pitting on it, so I'd love to get a set of stock cams to throw back in it. ~$600 is a little steep for cams right now.

Installing A New Timing Set Tomorrow. '02 4.6 Degree?

HawkX66

Member

wmburns

HawkX66

Member

wmburns

HawkX66

Member

wmburns

HawkX66

Member

HawkX66

Member

HawkX66

Member

HawkX66

Member

HawkX66

Member

wmburns

squeak93

HawkX66

Member

squeak93

HawkX66

Member

wmburns

HawkX66

Member

HawkX66

Member

HawkX66

Member

Similar threads

Installing A New Timing Set Tomorrow. '02 4.6 Degree?

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency