iron engine core to aluminum?

jimvsmij · Mar 28, 2011

I know this is a Mustang Forum but I'm hoping someone knows if I can swap out the iron engine core out of my 2004 4.6L F-150 with a 1999 SVT Cobra aluminum block easily.

Any advice will be appreciated.

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 28, 2011

If by easily you mean tear the engine out and swap over all of the components from your truck block, to the Cobra block...then sure...it's as easy as high school calculus.

My question though, is why? Do you really think the 70lbs or so in weight savings is really going to make that much difference in a vehicle that weigh's 5,000lbs+ already?

jimvsmij · Mar 28, 2011

It's more like 1900 pounds. The engine is going into my Austin Healey Kit Car.
Since it is more of a hobby vehicle I don't mind the time and effort it takes to swap engine cores. I have a tired 289 in it right now and want to modernize a bit.
I think my F-150 engine is a Romeo block because it the valve cover has 11 bolts. Is there an aluminum block option out there that I could find and buy so that all my other parts will transfer over without incompatibility issues?

JymboSlice · Mar 28, 2011

swap all your stuff over to a teksid aluminum block

jimvsmij · Mar 28, 2011

Yeah I hear that the teksids are the best. So you are saying that I will not have a problem bolting my heads to the block and all the rest of the parts?
Are all blocks Romeo, Windsor, Teksid, Aluminum, Iron.. all interchangeable??

trinity_gt · Mar 28, 2011

The pushrod Windsor engine is probably a better choice for a vehicle like that. The engine packaging is much tighter: it's narrower and not as tall as the mod motor giving tidier packaging, easier steering and exhaust routing and even a lower centre of gravity.

A 302 pushrod mill can be bored and stroked to 347 cubes whereas getting 5L out of a 4.6 mod is about the max.

If you do go with a Cobra shortblock but want to use the 2V heads be aware of the differences in piston dish sizes between 2V and 4V engines and the resulting compression ratios...

jimvsmij · Mar 28, 2011

Now he tell me now that I already have the 4.6L engine. LoL

I wanted to modernize the engine with a FI, overhead cam, electronic ignition engine and I know that most of that can all be done with pushrod engine.
I would have thought that the 4.6L engines would be shorter and have a lower center of gravity because the V is much wider. I have tones of room in that engine compartment. I just don't have a lot of height. I will also need to change the intake manifold to something like a mustang's because the F-150 intake is a high as a skyscraper!
Since the 4.6L engine is in the garage on a stand I thought it would be the right time to do any major modifications to it before I drop it into the car. Switching from Iron to Aluminum for the engine block seems to be a nice improvement if I can find a compatible block. I hoping that you mustangs guys with all your wealth of vast knowledge might know the answer that I'm looking for.

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 28, 2011

All truck engines were of the Windsor variety. You sure you're not missing a couple of bolts in your valve cover count? There should be 13.

How much of that Aluminum Cobra block have you got? It might be more worthwhile to build up a nice 4V for it. Probably won't save a lot of weight over the two valve, but it would sure look impressive under the hood of your Healey...and it's greater horsepower potential is a plus to boot.

If you're stuck on sticking with the 2V, you might just scavenge the wrecking yard for a complete 4.6L 2V from an '02-'05 Ford Explorer. It's essentially the same engine (PI top end and all) as the Mustang GT, with the nice addition of an aluminum block for weight savings.

Trinity is correct though...an OHV small block might be the better choice if space and weight is your primary concern, but It wouldn't look near as impressive as a big set of 4V DOHC heads and Cobra intake staring back at you when you opened the bonnet.

jimvsmij · Mar 28, 2011

I counted twice because I was sure that I should come up with 13. I counted 11.

So here is an aluminum 4.6L engine core:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1999...ptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

I'm hoping to find out, and it seem like you guys are indicating that I can, if I can swap my 4.6L iron engine core out of my 2004 F-150 engine with the one that I have linked above. If I can then I will buy it.

patman0911 · Mar 28, 2011

If you can cram a 4-valve in there, go with that - the 4-valve Modulars are beautiful looking engines and have a little more sports car cred than the pedestrian 2-valve. Cam it to the moon cause who cares about low-end torque when it's only got to move 2000lbs around, as long as drivability is maintained.

From a packaging standpoint, the OHV Windsor 5.0L is superior - they're shockingly small compared to a 4.6L Modular. Last time I looked at one, I had to count the exhaust ports to convince myself I wasn't looking at a 60 degree V6. They're both 90 degree blocks so if the 4.6L is wider, it's necessarily taller too. Longer stroke and taller heads to accommodate overhead cams makes for a bulky motor.

But, yeah, as long as it's not a FWD Lincoln Continental block, you should be able to make it work relatively easy with the right combination of timing cover, flywheel/flex plate and accessory brackets. I don't have the specific details but some searching here and on the other 'Stang boards should turn up what you need. You can make a pretty nice 4.6L mixing and matching factory parts that with a 5.0 you'd have to go to the aftermarket to match.

jimvsmij · Mar 28, 2011

Man, you mustang guys know your stuff! I came to the right place.
My Austin Healey is basically a Mustang II in engine, drive train, and suspension.
Now I'm going to have to measure what kind of height I have to work with. I assumed that the 289 was shorter in height because the V is more narrow but after your post I'm not sure. I hope that I will be able to buy the aluminum block and be able to do the swap and then still be able to fit it into the car. I'm not worried about the length and width because I have plenty of room.
Maybe I will start the engine core swap then in the middle decide to do with the DOHC 4 valves! Like GearBanger said, It would look really impressive!

trinity_gt · Mar 28, 2011

jimvsmij said:
Now he tell me now that I already have the 4.6L engine. LoL

It sounds like it's early in your project so you've got some time to sort this stuff out.

I wanted to modernize the engine with a FI, overhead cam, electronic ignition engine and I know that most of that can all be done with pushrod engine.
I would have thought that the 4.6L engines would be shorter and have a lower center of gravity because the V is much wider.

Actually, the pushrod engine is quite a bit more compact. I have an old 2003 FRPP catalog and in the back is a "table" giving engine dimensions. The 302 dimensions are (in inches):

L: 27-1/2
H: 20-3/4
W: 18-3/4.

For the 4.6L mod SOHC motor, the same dimensions are given as:
L: 28
H: 26
W: 28-5/8

(FWIW, the DOHC numbers are LxHxW: 28x29-7/8x30 inches....)

For their modest displacement the mods are actually very voluminous. Check out the height and width differences. Part of the issue is the deep block (which is, admittedly, much stronger than the later 302 blocks...) but the main driver are those cams in the large head castings.

There's no reason you couldn't drop in a "modern" 302 with an A9L EEC-IV ECM and get all the benefits of fuel injection and electronic ignition. Miata guys do this mod all the time. I haven't seen any Miata mod-motor conversions (though they are probably around...)

Since the 4.6L engine is in the garage on a stand I thought it would be the right time to do any major modifications to it before I drop it into the car. Switching from Iron to Aluminum for the engine block seems to be a nice improvement if I can find a compatible block. I hoping that you mustangs guys with all your wealth of vast knowledge might know the answer that I'm looking for.

Any 4V engine block with the exception of the 03-04 Terminator Cobra will be aluminum. You should be able to strip it down to the shortblock and start adding back your current 2V components to build out the long block. Keep in mind that the 4V engines used a different piston dish than the PI 2V did so you'll want to think about swapping slugs too.

jimvsmij · Mar 28, 2011

Thanks! The more info I have on this the better! I'm going to get my measuring tape out as soon as I get home and see what my options are.

patman0911 · Mar 28, 2011

You're not limited to Cobras if you're looking for aluminum blocks either, although they usually get the best cranks, if not rods and pistons.

Lincoln Mark VIII had them (4V, very similar to 96-96 Cobras) and you can find those at pick-n-pulls for almost nothing. Also, later years of the Explorer had aluminum block PI 2V, Lincoln Aviators had 4V aluminum motors but would need a shorter car intake, Mach1 and Maurader had aluminum 4V motors similar to 1999-2001 Cobras and of course, 2005-2010 Mustang GTs are all aluminum blocks.

There are several different castings with reputably different levels of power handling, but within the realm of what you and most people are doing (like, less than, I dunno, 1000HP), it doesn't matter. All the blocks are way stronger than what 99% of people will ever need and they should all be good for at least 7000 RPM N/A with stock internals.

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 28, 2011

Let's also keep in mind when taking measurements....FRPP measures their engines as a long block assembly, not as a complete assembly. That means no upper intake manifold and/or carburetor. A carb and or upper intake manifold can take up a considerable amount of space and seriously impede hood clearance. More so if you go the carb route since you’ve got to make room for a usually tall intake lid and filter.

OHV engines on the other hand have lower profile intakes, since the majority of their intake runner length is located within the intake galley between the heads.

This is why you’ll notice that despite the additional engine height, the 4.6L modular has the same, or better hood clearance as the OHV when stuffed into the same car. Example…5.0L OHV in the ’94-’95 Mustang GT and the 4.6L SOHC/DOHC in the ‘96’98 Mustang GT/Cobra. Same vehicles, with the same amount of clearance.

jimvsmij · Mar 28, 2011

Well I definitely do not want a carb sitting on top of my pretty 4.6L engine. I need a low profile intake manifold that will not add height, fitting snugly between the two banks. Like I said before, The F-150 intake is ridiculously tall.

Based on Patman's comment do you think it would be better of me to disregard my F-150 completely and instead of getting a new aluminum engine core and moving the parts to it, just purchase a pulled engine from one of the cars he mentioned and rebuild it? (assuming it fits)

trinity_gt · Mar 28, 2011

The mod is obnoxiously larger than the old pushrod motor.

compared to

Compare the locations of the valve covers of these two engines, how much space there is either side of the pushrod engine. Add in the intake manifold and upper plenum and you end up with a very tall package too.

The fact that pulling off even a valve cover on a SOHC engine is tricky (getting it past the master cylinder and hydroboost, for instance) indicates that the mod is a dimensional pig compared to the pushrod motor.

Both fit in the Fox/SN-95 engine bay but one definitely leaves more room left over...

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 28, 2011

jimvsmij said:
Well I definitely do not want a carb sitting on top of my pretty 4.6L engine. I need a low profile intake manifold that will not add height, fitting snugly between the two banks. Like I said before, The F-150 intake is ridiculously tall.

Based on Patman's comment do you think it would be better of me to disregard my F-150 completely and instead of getting a new aluminum engine core and moving the parts to it, just purchase a pulled engine from one of the cars he mentioned and rebuild it? (assuming it fits)

If bang for your buck is your primary concern, then go with the '02-'05 Explorer engine as I stated. It's the lightest of the modular engines and makes the same 260hp/302lbs/ft that the late model 2V GT does. You might not even have to worry about a rebuild anytime soon. Mod motors, like the last EFI pushrod engines will go for miles and miles and miles without the need of a rebuild.

If pretty and powerful is your concern, hold out for a 4V engine. Yes, you can pick up an old Mark VIII engine for next to nothing, but chances of finding one that isn't worn completely out at your local pick n pull are slim. Anyone I've ever seen has been run into the ground. Not to mention it's got the wrong intake and least desirable heads on it. You'd probably be better off holding out for a Cobra or a Marauder engine. Sure, you'll pay a little more for one than any of the other 4V's, but they've got the best heads/intakes on them...which you'll just end up having to scrounge for later anyway.

trinity_gt said:
Compare the locations of the valve covers of these two engines, how much space there is either side of the pushrod engine. Add in the intake manifold and upper plenum and you end up with a very tall package too.

I hope you're reffering to the OHV intake and upper plenum in that statement. The Modular intake is much lower profile than the OHV, dispite it's larger width. This is why the installed height of the engines is essentially the same...even though the long block height of the OHV is lower.

jimvsmij · Mar 28, 2011

Ok, so If I have the room, you are recommending that a good engine would be the 02-05 Explorer for a two valve or I can go all the way and try and get a 4V engine from a Lincoln Mark VIII, Marauder, or a Cobra.
Do you know what years of those models that have those engines off the top of your head?

I just want to say that today have been incredible for the amount of relevant info that you guys have been feeding me. I cannot thank you enough...

trinity_gt · Mar 28, 2011

Gearbanger 101 said:
I hope you're reffering to the OHV intake and upper plenum in that statement. The Modular intake is much lower profile than the OHV, dispite it's larger width. This is why the installed height of the engines is essentially the same...even though the long block height of the OHV is lower.

The modular intake does a good job of using space in the 'V' (unless you're looking at an F-150 intake...) which is a good thing since, as you note, the engine is otherwise so tall that it needs to this to come in at a decent vertical dimension whereas the pushrod engine can get away with the intake scheme it does and still ends up being compact.

But I'm not fixated on the manifolds. Look again at the valve covers of both engines: The mod is 10 inches wider. Another example: The 5.4L mod is a tight squeeze even in a volume as large as the SN-95 engine bay because its added deck height just pushes the cylinder heads that much further apart.

A 460 big-block is narrower than these engines...

For the cubic inches available versus the volume taken, the mod isn't a very efficient solution. In a wee little car I think a pushrod mill would be a better solution both aesthetically and performance-wise.

I have to say though, if the OP can make a DOHC motor fit into that car it would be sweet.

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