Lighter vs. More horsepower?

TheVin

New Member
Jan 12, 2007
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Hi all:

As mentioned in other threads here, I'm finally placing my factory order for a GT mustang in the next few days. Before I take delivery of my GT, I am having a Roush Short Throw and a Roush Suspension (full kit) put in. This basically, in my oh-so-humble opinion, will correct the two main 'problems' with the stock mustang-as-sportscar (unresponsiveness to steering input, and lack of 'feel' both in terms of personality and roadfeel).

So, looking ahead, I see two interesting ways to continue to maximize the potential of the mustang, now that 'feel' and handling are at least mostly dealt with. One is to reduce the weight of the drivetrain and the overall car, the other is to boost the horsepower of the under-utilized 3 valve v8.

Talking with mechanical engineers (I have the mixed pleasure of being surrounded by them at work), it seems like the new 3-valve v8 has a significant amount of un-utilized enineered-in overhead... Probably ford leaving itself lots of room for future models without a core engine re-design (witness the gt500). Picking up some of that slack with Aspiration and/or pre-compression (turbo or blower) has an appeal. (I saw the top-gear episode where the roush stage 3 terminated the gt500... ).

But, it also stries me that perhaps the best first path is to lighten the car, and also the drivetrain. Does anyone have any good data on what a lighter driveshaft and flywheel do to the performance of the GT? Furthermore, for a more extreme mod, how much weight can be lost with carbon fiber trunk, fenders, doors and hood? I have heard that (on average) every 100 pounds of dropped weight can pay of as much as a 1/10 second in quartermile time- is this true? I probably never will drag race (though may spend time at a track), but it is a good measure of over-all performance.

Given all the body an/or drivetrain work involved, and if you want to paint-match the (body) parts, I'm sure that lightening the car is probably more expensive... But the s197 Mustang is bordering on obese anyway...

Anyway- How say you all? Whats the best way to proceed? An aluminum drive shaft and flywheel- or Custom tune+intake+exhaust?



Vin
 
all of the above....i know a lot of people on this site have the aluminum driveshaft and like it alot..as for the carbon fiber body panels i know that would get extremely expensive and there are cheaper ways for reducing weight; rear seat delete,removing spare tire, granatelli makes tubular k-member and a-arms that they claim remove almost 50 lbs combined along with other benefits...would definately go with the tune cai and exhaust as well...that is the most fun of the mustang for me looking at all of the parts to make it faster and cooler...my wife does not agree sadly
 
I would stay away from major moves to make the car lighter, kind of a waste of time for a track car, while still a road worthy beast. Simply stated; go for horsepower and suspension mods. Particularly being that you will be road racing, not drag racing. The more power you get laid down in the corners, the better off your times will be.

If I had to build my Mustang into a pure track car, I would...

Engine: start with the CAI and tune as well as UDP, followed by an eventual blower, cams, throttle body, and A/C delete.

Suspension: lowering springs, stiffer struts/dampers, lower control arms, sway bars, and an adjustable panhard rod. May even want to add camber adjust plates.

Other: 3.73 gears, depending on how tight the twisties are, and how long the straights are, wherever you road race. Aluminum driveshaft. A FULL exhaust with long tube headers, O/R x, and race style axel backs. 17" rims with 255 race slicks.

Weight: rear seat delete, spare tire delete.

That was fun, always good to dream.
 
On my 2007 GT, I have a BMR tubular K member and a arms and a steeda rear suspension package. The car still rides "better" than my dad's 04 stock suspension GT.

The car puts power to the ground very well for running on 235's.

I have the aluminum flywheel and driveshaft also and am very pleased with these upgrades as well.
 
I would stay away from a blower if you are going to be road racing it. A blower is just going to add weight to the front of your car and throw off the cars balance (it's already front heavy). Crane Cams just came out with some stage 4 cams and a guy on ModularFords with Long Tubes, CAI, Tune, UDP, CMCV deletes, and a few other bolt ons made 361rwhp/338rwtq N/A.

first of all i don`t know why but i`m not able to post the scan of my dyno maybe it`s the damn vista.
now the real thing cams. let me tell you that they scream like hell they are the crane stage 4 with 552intake lift and 600 exhaust. My baseline was on the same dyno (dynojet), 315whp ans 334tq sae corrected.the new number is 361.65whp and 338.04 tq sae corrected. I lost 20 to 25 tq until 4200rpm but at 6000 rpm i gain and don`t lie 55 tq. the peak hp is at 6700 rpm. we turn the vct off that was the recommandation of crane. the only problem we have is the idle, he is rough and i mean really rough but the car stall every time you press the clutch and let the rpm fall, we have to push the gas just a little bit to slow the rpm but that`s the only thing annoying. next step, throttle body (know i think the time is right), electric water pump and drivingshaft.

He's running an auto and probably doesn't have a high enough stall for the cams, but if you wanted to stay N/A (I'd suggest it if you are going to be road racing) then this is a great way to keep it N/A and still make a ton of power.



Link to thread on MF:
http://www.modularfords.com/forums/2005-mustang/the-cams-are-in-84351.html



Talking with mechanical engineers (I have the mixed pleasure of being surrounded by them at work), it seems like the new 3-valve v8 has a significant amount of un-utilized enineered-in overhead... Probably ford leaving itself lots of room for future models without a core engine re-design (witness the gt500).

The GT500 has a 5.4L 4v V8 engine. It's not even remotely the same as the motor that is in the Mustang GT (4.6L 3v V8). The roush also destroyed the GT500 in the twisties because of suspension, not power. On that same episode they said that the GT500 caught up to the Roush on the straights (pretty much destroyed the Roush's straight line speed).
 
If you are going to race the car, why not keep your stang stock and buy a used fox body?

The stuff you are talking about is so expensive, I have no idea why anyone would waste their money on it. Buy a used Foxbody and go nuts, it would run circles around the Roush. But hey, it's your thing, good luck.
 
Personally, I would only autocross my 'Stang. I would not want to be hard on my baby. Buy a super-modified race car and go nuts on the dirt track, now that sounds like fun.

But then again, I cannot afford to go crazy on mods, and obviously cannot afford to fix it if I were to break it. CAI and tune is enough for me...
 
Personally, I would only autocross my 'Stang. I would not want to be hard on my baby. Buy a super-modified race car and go nuts on the dirt track, now that sounds like fun.

But then again, I cannot afford to go crazy on mods, and obviously cannot afford to fix it if I were to break it. CAI and tune is enough for me...

Autocross is just as expensive and just as hard on your car as drag racing is. At every other autocross meet you go to you might as well factor in 4 new tires since you will most likely run them down if you run your car hard. Also, all of that hard braking and hard turning wears on your brakes and suspension very fast.

Drag racing you really only need 2 new tires every so often depending on your burnout. And there isn't much wear and tear on the suspension but your drivetrain takes the hit at the strip.
 
If you are going to race the car, why not keep your stang stock and buy a used fox body?

The stuff you are talking about is so expensive, I have no idea why anyone would waste their money on it. Buy a used Foxbody and go nuts, it would run circles around the Roush. But hey, it's your thing, good luck.

Fox bodies are uncomfortable and the steering wheel isn't adjustable. Think about all the reasons you love the interior of your car and all of the reasons you love your car. Now tell me, does the fox body have any of the interior amenities that the S197 does? No. S197 wins in the interior department of any Mustang produced. I would rather drive a bone stock S197 as a DD than drive a 11 second fox as a DD. Also, there is so much you have to do to get a fox to be autocross worthy. I'd put money down that you could spend less modding the S197 than the Fox and get it to run faster around the track faster too.
 
No way, a Fox body would run circles around our cars for 5 -10 grand tops...

06 weights 3373
Fox Body Notch Back weights 2775

558 pounds different between stock cars.
Rip out the interior
Put on some real brakes
302 motors are dirt cheap and can make huge power with bolt ons
T5's are laying around everywhere
Some sub frames and other odds and ends
Supension kit, which may I add is nearly identical to our cars.

If you were savy, you could build this car including the car, for under 10 grand, maybe even closer to 6-8 grand.
 
No way, a Fox body would run circles around our cars for 5 -10 grand tops...

06 weights 3373
Fox Body Notch Back weights 2775

558 pounds different between stock cars.
Rip out the interior
Put on some real brakes
302 motors are dirt cheap and can make huge power with bolt ons
T5's are laying around everywhere
Some sub frames and other odds and ends
Supension kit, which may I add is nearly identical to our cars.

If you were savy, you could build this car including the car, for under 10 grand, maybe even closer to 6-8 grand.

Not including the cost of the car, I'd put my money on the new 'stangs. Tune + CAI yields close to 40hp for about 600~ bucks. The rigitity of the frame is incredible too.

If we were going to include the cost of the car, then I agree with you, the Fox body would probably destroy the new 'stangs.

But that's another discussion...back on topic! Sorry 'bout that.
 
lil07 how much was the install on the k-member and the a-arms?i have been looking at them for a while but it seemed a little too big a project for me..

$350.00 ... Local speed shop in Houston Texas...

Worth every penny of it!:nice:

Shop told me everything bolted up perfectly. No filing or persuading of any bolts or parts. I've had a lot of work done at this shop and if they have a hard time with something, they usually tell me it was a PIA. So I take their word for it...

Now the turbo install I did in my garage... THAT was fun........
 
I own a carbon fiber company, and can offer parts at a reasonable rate, if there would be enough interest in it.

A full body set with CF fenders/hood/doors and trunk, CF seats etc could shed quite a few pounds.

Making the car lighter will also improve gas mileage and handling in addition to acceleration.

I'll have to read the forum rules but I may need to make a poll to gauge interest in affordable CF parts. Just don't want to get :ban: on post number 3 or 4......
 
I own a carbon fiber company, and can offer parts at a reasonable rate, if there would be enough interest in it.

A full body set with CF fenders/hood/doors and trunk, CF seats etc could shed quite a few pounds.

Making the car lighter will also improve gas mileage and handling in addition to acceleration.

I'll have to read the forum rules but I may need to make a poll to gauge interest in affordable CF parts. Just don't want to get :ban: on post number 3 or 4......

Welcome to Stangnet. You are a wise man. :nice: Before you post a poll or any marketing material or a demographical survey, please contact [email protected] for further discussion.

http://www.drive9.com/
 
$350.00 ... Local speed shop in Houston Texas...

Worth every penny of it!:nice:

Shop told me everything bolted up perfectly. No filing or persuading of any bolts or parts. I've had a lot of work done at this shop and if they have a hard time with something, they usually tell me it was a PIA. So I take their word for it...

Now the turbo install I did in my garage... THAT was fun........

Which speed shop do you use? If you don't want to say out in the public could you PM me the shop? I've been looking around for one and being from The Woodlands (north of houston, I'm sure you've heard of it), Houston isn't to much of a drive for me if they have a good rep.
 
N/A power and INSANE lope

Maxrev on another board (ModularFords) just put in Crane Stage 4 cams. Pretty aggressive but if it's a track car, I would suggest thinking about them.

Here is his numbers plotted against stock.


39881d1179578975-the-cams-are-in-crane-4-and-oem-graph.gif

Plotting compliments of "qwkcoupe" from MF
He started with LT's, CAI, UDP, CMCV deletes, and some other bolt ons and was putting down 315/33x. With the cams he hit 368/338 :eek:

Not a great video sound quality wise, but you can get the picture here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_1DVmLNfH8 :drool:

and his dyno:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEqoUOsSpg8

And specs:
according to Crane, they have a 248*/264*duration.. these numbers along with the .552" intake and .600" exhaust lift.

If you're going to go N/A and want it to be a track car, it makes some IMPRESSIVE numbers in the upper RPM's which is where you would be staying if you autox or road raced it.