Loud noise after cam install...

[Unreal281]

Hey guys,

Just installed hi-tech stage 2 cams. did everything by the book but i have this incredibly loud "sewing maching" noise coming from the front of the motor...its really really concerning me, and I'm ridiculously bummed.

If anyone has any suggestions...let me know. By the way, the car is a 2000 gt, and has full bolt ons, with NO tune...

 

[Winters98GT]

Stock springs? Did you degree the cams?

 

[trinity_gt]

If you've just done something as invasive as cams and now have noises from under the timing cover, it stands to reason the timing cover will have to come off to inspect it.

So...pull the front cover off and inspect everything. Hopefully that noise isn't metal to metal contact anywhere otherwise the oil pickup, pump and filter are probably full of shavings now...

 

[Unreal281]

yes, they are stock springs...

no, due to hi-tech saying I wouldnt have to, I did not degree them. This is my first time ever installing cams.

I had to do EVERYTHING...take the timing cover off any all. I have a press on gear car, bought new sprockets and hardware for a 2001+gt.

 

[Winters98GT]

I agree with Trinity.

You need to take the car back apart. Something is not right. I would never install after market cams without upgrading the springs or having somebody degree them. Here are a few threads that might help you out.

I ran Erson Cams(regrinds), that used lash adjusters under the lifters, and we did not degree the cams. My motor let go a day later.

My Hitech stage 2 cam review - Corral Forums

http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?p=891078

 

[trinity_gt]

The HiTech cams specs are "234/230 duration, 111 lobe sep, .550/.500 lift". These aren't too far off my Comp 262 specs of 226/230, 113 and .550/.550. I've been running stock springs with these cams for a while with no issues at all. I just keep the RPM down.

The "sewing machine" noises suggest metal to metal contact or problems in the timing chain guides or tensioner arms or ... If you can definitely isolate the noise to behind the front cover (e.g. with a stethoscope) then yank it and see what's up.

One thing that comes to mind is the crank sprocket: Did you change it? Did you use the correct part? 4.6s came with at least three different timing wheel and crank sprocket setups. Earlier engines has a thick, powdered-metal timing wheel and later cars -- in 2000 -- used a stamped wheel. The crank sprockets have also seen revisions: in 2000 a one-piece design replaced a two-sprocket set-up previously used and in 2002 another revision was made to the trigger wheel and sprocket. If you don't have matching sets of parts (e.g. early trigger wheel with later crank sprocket) you may have pushed the trigger wheel forward resulting in it contacting the front cover.

Your car is a 2000 Windsor motor and you got timing equipment for a 2001+ (Romeo) 4.6. I really think you might have a parts-mismatch problem -- especially if you didn't update the trigger wheel -- here and may be machining the front cover with the trigger wheel. When you pull the dispstick, do you see glints of aluminium in the oil?

 

[Unreal281]

The HiTech cams specs are "234/230 duration, 111 lobe sep, .550/.500 lift". These aren't too far off my Comp 262 specs of 226/230, 113 and .550/.550. I've been running stock springs with these cams for a while with no issues at all. I just keep the RPM down.

The "sewing machine" noises suggest metal to metal contact or problems in the timing chain guides or tensioner arms or ... If you can definitely isolate the noise to behind the front cover (e.g. with a stethoscope) then yank it and see what's up.

One thing that comes to mind is the crank sprocket: Did you change it? Did you use the correct part? 4.6s came with at least three different timing wheel and crank sprocket setups. Earlier engines has a thick, powdered-metal timing wheel and later cars -- in 2000 -- used a stamped wheel. The crank sprockets have also seen revisions: in 2000 a one-piece design replaced a two-sprocket set-up previously used and in 2002 another revision was made to the trigger wheel and sprocket. If you don't have matching sets of parts (e.g. early trigger wheel with later crank sprocket) you may have pushed the trigger wheel forward resulting in it contacting the front cover.

Your car is a 2000 Windsor motor and you got timing equipment for a 2001+ (Romeo) 4.6. I really think you might have a parts-mismatch problem -- especially if you didn't update the trigger wheel -- here and may be machining the front cover with the trigger wheel. When you pull the dispstick, do you see glints of aluminium in the oil?

No aluminum or any shards in oil...just checked it. pulled the passenger side valve cover back off, and nothing is wrong with the valvetrain...(thats the side that the noise was coming from) the timing chain has a little bit of slack on that side, is there any way to mess with the timing chain tensioner without taking the cover off? maybe its stuck.

No, i just bought the new cam sprockets. once again, because this is ALL that hi-tech told me I would have to do. I got 01-04 gt cam sprockets, spacers, and washers.

 

[Unreal281]

Another thing I should include is that when I lined everything up, and put the new sprockets and cams in, i DID NOT take the entire chain off...and no it didnt skip any teeth on the crank sprocket...

It all lined up fine, and the sprockets have plenty of room between the head and timing cover...

 

[trinity_gt]

So you didn't change the chains or crank sprocket? When you say you "had to do EVERYTHING" you didn't actually do "everything"? If not then you might be able to rule out timing component interference with the front cover.

In the OP you said you had an "incredibly loud 'sewing maching' noise coming from the front of the motor" and here you say the noise is coming from the passenger side (i.e. "thats the side that the noise was coming from"): Is the other side quiet?

 

[Unreal281]

So you didn't change the chains or crank sprocket? When you say you "had to do EVERYTHING" you didn't actually do "everything"? If not then you might be able to rule out timing component interference with the front cover.

In the OP you said you had an "incredibly loud 'sewing maching' noise coming from the front of the motor" and here you say the noise is coming from the passenger side (i.e. "thats the side that the noise was coming from"): Is the other side quiet?

Sorry man, I appreciate your help, but i'm really really frustrated, and Ill try to slow down and explain things better...I'm still learning.

NO, I didnt change EVERYTHING. Just what I was told to change.

Yes, it is a very very loud sewing machine noise coming from the passenger side, behind the cover. The other side is dead quiet. This noise I'm hearing kind "vibrates" back through the passenger side valvetrain too. When I use a screwdriver to listen to everything.

As I said, I'm still new to this. But i REALLY APPRECIATE you taking time out of your day to help me. If its any help, this is the SECOND time i've re-used my tensioners. Maybe they need replaced?

 

[wmburns]

Jumping in late, but a sewing machine sound from the front sounds like timing chains to me. This could be the adjusters.

How did you compress the adjusters? Did you remember to remove the holding pins to release the adjusters? Are the chains tight on both sides?

The other thing could be excessive binding on the cam shaft itself. This is translating into increased turning effort on the cam. This in turn creates additional force that the timing chains have to take up. The chains respond with increased noise.

How did you torque the cam shaft caps? Were there any evidence of galling/binding on the cam towers? With the roller followers removed, how hard was it to turn the cam shaft?

 

[Unreal281]

Alright, so I took the cover back off... and I'm back to where I was. I purchased new timing chain tensioners, and timing cover and valve cover gaskets, and installed the new tensioners...

I put the cover back on, and to my dismay, sewing machine noise is still there and still loud...

Again, I have a 2000 gt with hitech stage 2 cams. I am using the 01+ cam gears, spacers, and washers. Everything is specd the way it should be. I've double and tripped checked EVERYTHING...But there is still an incredibly loud "sewing machine" noise coming from behind the timing cover...and now the noise is vibrating on both sides, and is JUST AS LOUD on both sides of the car BEHIND the timing cover...

Its almost like the chain is hitting the timing cover...but there is nothing on the inside of the timing cover...not a mark.

There is also no evidence of contact between the chain and the guides, or shoes. No chewed up or broken plastic, or anything.

When turning the motor over by hand, with the plugs out, it almost "binds" up for a second, and then goes away on every revolution i make...it just kind of gives a little resistance, and then frees itself up. this is seriously just sounding like the timing chain is making contact inside of the cover...

I'm so confused at this point...something stupid i've noticed is that it almost looks like the camshaft positioning sensor that gets plugged in on the outside of the cover, behind the power steering pump resevoir, is chewed up. Like somethings been hitting it...but I dont see a point of contact.

I CANT BELIEVE THAT I'M THE ONLY PERSON TO EVER RUN INTO THIS PROBLEM...I've done everything that the hitech reps have told me to do. Purchased all the parts, and followed ALL of the cam install threads...double and tripple checked them...read them over and over.

I just dont know what i'm missing...SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!!!

 

[Unreal281]

i mean LITERALLY, ALL I did...was install stage 2 cams. I didnt change a damn thing...my car has run great for years...and I install these cams, and it sounds like a loud, tapping, metal on metal sewing machine...I JUST CHANGED THE DAMN CAMS...

 

[Midnight2V]

Unbolt the cam sensor and back it out of the cover. Start the car and see if it is still there. Don't back it all the way out. Make sure Someone holds the can sensor so it doesn't fall out.

 

[Unreal281]

after reviewing it again...there is no point of contact between the cam sensor and sprocket...

 

[wmburns]

When turning the motor over by hand, with the plugs out, it almost "binds" up for a second, and then goes away on every revolution i make...it just kind of gives a little resistance, and then frees itself up. this is seriously just sounding like the timing chain is making contact inside of the cover...

When turning a motor over by hand with no spark plugs installed, it should turn over smoothly. The fact that it is binding enough to be felt should not be ignored.

Suggest pulling the plugs and removing the valve covers. Have a buddy turn the motor over by hand. See if you can spot anything happening when the binding is felt.

What about the cam shaft galling angle? Did you inspect the cam towers for damage or metal transfer?

Are you absolutely positive this is not piston to valve contact? I have read posts where PTV contact does not occur when aftermarket cams are degreed straight up (stock) but DOES occur if the cam timing is altered in any way. Since you are using Romeo components on a Windsor motor, this opens up the possibility of the cam timing being the cause.

A recording of the noise may help as well (pictures?). The frequency of the sound may provide some information as to the cause. Remember, the cam shaft rotates at half the speed of the crank shaft. So a repetitive tick that is in time with the RPM indicates a crank shaft problem. Where as if 1/2 the RPM indicates a cam/valve problem.

A timing chain noise is less pronounced unless it is a specific point on the chains making contact. Then the noise would be much slower than RPM because it takes many revolutions for a specific spot to come around.

 

[Ares]

"When turning the motor over by hand, with the plugs out, it almost "binds" up for a second, and then goes away on every revolution i make...it just kind of gives a little resistance, and then frees itself up. this is seriously just sounding like the timing chain is making contact inside of the cover..."


The cams you have what are the actual Intake CL's for each cam as found on the cam cards? I use those cams and one came ground at 110* I CL(right cam) and other at 112* I CL(left cam). Those cams will have PTV at 110* with stock intake valves. I have mine setup at 113* I CL using adjustable timing gears just for peace of mind untill I get stock heads off. Plus stock timing gears are not always correct to begin with. Another reason cams should be properly degree'd and clearance checked.

 

[trombonedemon]

What oil are you running just out of curiosity, WM burns might be right about the timing chain. Thicker the oil the longer it takes for the pressure to build up thus, your going to hear those timing chain like sounds until the engine reaches correct operating temps. Correct me if I'm wrong but, if there is piston to valve contact then the valve is bent, thus causing a miss fire.
According to the manual, an overlapping metallic noise that increase in intensity as the engine speed increases, yet diminihes as the engine warms indicates abonormal piton and cylinder wear. It also states high viscosity or change would cure a stuck lifter problem. Thus going back to the engine oil question. Take these manuals w/ some what of a grain salt w/ diagnosing. These cars are like people, anything can happen and they are tempermental. But, listen to the above poster WM Burns, he hasn't led anyone wrong.

 

[Unreal281]

HAHAHAHA I feel really really stupid, and really really happy right now...

Turns out that I as 1/2 tooth off on the right hand timing chain "passenger side"...

I took all of the timing components off...and marked everything again...and used a small mirror to stick under the crank sprocket to check my timing marks...ALL FIXED!!!

THANK YOU SO MUCH, ALL OF YOU WHO HELPED!

STANGNET RULES!!!

I'll be sure to post up my dyno numbers here in the next few weeks...

 

[Mike97gt]

HAHAHAHA I feel really really stupid, and really really happy right now...

Turns out that I as 1/2 tooth off on the right hand timing chain "passenger side"...

I took all of the timing components off...and marked everything again...and used a small mirror to stick under the crank sprocket to check my timing marks...ALL FIXED!!!

THANK YOU SO MUCH, ALL OF YOU WHO HELPED!

STANGNET RULES!!!

I'll be sure to post up my dyno numbers here in the next few weeks...

EEK... PTV.. but as long as it is running fine now you got really really lucky