MPH Mongoose Vortech Kit vs. RPMoutlet's Procharger Kit.

[Gearbanger 101]

ever notice that intercooled P1-SC's make about the same power as non-intercooled S-Trims?

Nope, I've actually almost always seen P-1SC's dyno higher when in direct comparison to one and other at the same boost levels. A Mongoose kit at 8psi dyno's at what...350-370rwhp on a stock or mild bolt on '99-up GT. Most of the Procharger guys are making about 20-30hp more than that at the same levels. Check out xseler8’s car. He’s making 390rwhp and nearly 390lbs ft/tq at only 8psi on a stock ’02 Vert. I’ve never, ever seen an S-trim tuned by anyone make that kind of power on a stock car with that little boost......and I’ll strait up call you a liar if you tell me you have! How about the P-600B non-self contained unit. Take a look at cmb91lx’s car. He's got a bone stock '96 Cobra with nothing more than an X-pipe and flow masters and he's making 420rwhp and 435rwtq......at only 6psi!?! I can't even say that I've seen a Twin Screw pull those kind of numbers at such low boost levels!!! That's impressive.

and the P1SC dies around 500rwhp while the S trim has gone well past the 600 mark.

Really....then I guess one of these manufacturers is lying? I did happen to double check on what each blower was rated at and your numbers don’t add up! Seems as though the P-1SC will suport more power than the Vortech S-Trim, as I stated!

VORTECH V-1 S-TRIM SUPERCHARGER
The industry standard supercharger

Straight cut spur gear
Fits engines up to 680 horsepower
Maximum airflow: 1,000 CFM *
Maximum boost pressure: 20 PSI *
Maximum impeller speed: 50,000 RPM
Adiabatic efficiency: 72% **
Available with straight or curved discharge and clockwise or counterclockwise rotation

Model P-1SC
Volute Diameter 9"
Max Supercharged HP 825
Base HP Range of Motor
(Naturally Aspirated) 200-500
Max Flow (cfm) 1200
Max boost (psi) 30
Inlet Hose Diameter 3.75"
Inducer Diameter 3.37"
Exducer Diameter 6.25"
Outlet Hose Diameter 3"
Outlet I.D. 2.62"
Max Impeller RPM 62,000
Internal Step-up 4.10:1
Reverse Rotation
Available Yes
Self Contained Yes
Oil Capacity 6 oz

i've never heard of a S trim head unit having a problem, which is funny, because there are atleast 5 for every P1-SC. between the two, Tim B prefers the S Trim. i'm sure he has valid reasons.

I'm sure he has valid reasons as well. Mainly cost. It's a lot cheaper for him to buy his own head unit and package his own kit than it is for him to do the same with the Procharger models, then have to fab up a cooler system. Vortechs and Paxtons are well put together blowers, but discounting a Procharger because of a couple of leaky seal rumors is kinda dumb. For all of the complaints that I've heard (usually recirculated rumors) about the "leaky seal" issue, I've never heard of one leading to the failure of the unit itself.

I have however hear of at least one Vortech and One Paxton having siezed up for undetermined reason. I've also seen a few posts in the 5.0L Tech section with regards to the same two manufactures blowers needing to be rebuild with realativly low mileage on them. Am I going to judge an entire line up because of a couple of isolated incidences? Nope and neither should someone else.

roots and twin screw blowers have heat exchangers for their blowers whereas the P1-SC does not.

What do heat exchangers have to do with leaky seals?

we can go on if you really want, but the truth of the matter is that the S-trim is more durable, and can just flat out make more power. if you don't believe me, prove me wrong.

Prove you wrong....you mean other than the statistics I posted above? Ok, why don't you check out some real world numbers from both uses and see which charger makes more power.
http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=593820

All I'm saying is that Prochargers should not be disregarded as a serious contender! And anyone who does because of a couple of “leaky seal” rumors is going to find themselves on the loosing end of a race, more often than not

 

[helty]

i've been looking at both kits. i dont care for RPMOutlet, they've screwed me twice. but, i have heard good stuff about Procharger.

the prices are close, but the MPH kit also includes a 90mm MAF, spark plugs and and IAT sensor where as the RPM kit does not. are these things necessary or are they just an improvement over the stock components?

i'll probably end up going with MPH, but maybe the Novi kit. what boost levels are available for the Novi and which would be safe for a DD car? i'd like to stay under 385hp.

also, does anyone know if Tim would knock a few hundred $$ of a kit since i already have a tuner and would have the car dyno tuned at another reputable shop? (its about 500 miles closer. i know Tim is a God among 2V engine builders, but i trust this other shop just as much)

 

[jimfitzgerald]

i've been looking at both kits. i dont care for RPMOutlet, they've screwed me twice. but, i have heard good stuff about Procharger.

the prices are close, but the MPH kit also includes a 90mm MAF, spark plugs and and IAT sensor where as the RPM kit does not. are these things necessary or are they just an improvement over the stock components?

i'll probably end up going with MPH, but maybe the Novi kit. what boost levels are available for the Novi and which would be safe for a DD car? i'd like to stay under 385hp.

also, does anyone know if Tim would knock a few hundred $$ of a kit since i already have a tuner and would have the car dyno tuned at another reputable shop? (its about 500 miles closer. i know Tim is a God among 2V engine builders, but i trust this other shop just as much)

You might want a Vortech S or SQ-trim if that's all the rwhp you want to make. The Novi 2000 is a bigger blower. I made 661 rwhp at 22 psi with the Novi. Give Tim a call and let him know exactly what you need. He's not going to charge you for stuff you don't want, I'm sure.

 

[helty]

You might want a Vortech S or SQ-trim if that's all the rwhp you want to make. The Novi 2000 is a bigger blower. I made 661 rwhp at 22 psi with the Novi. Give Tim a call and let him know exactly what you need. He's not going to charge you for stuff you don't want, I'm sure.

i agree that the SQ would be fine for my application. i know the Novi can produce some awesome numbers, thats why im interested in it. im just looking ahead, for when i have enough $$ to build a forged shortblock. i'd rather already have the blower i need to make more power than have to buy a new one. couldnt i just run a Novi at lower boost (for now, with my stock SB) to produce around 350-385hp? and then when i have a built motor, i'll already have a blower capable of producing 600+. or would running a bigger blower like the Novi at lower boost levels not be as efficient (or good for it/the motor ) as an SQ? im new to the blower game and thats why i'll be asking all the dumb questions as i do research and save up for one.

thanks Jim, and anyone else that can help me

 

[jimfitzgerald]

i agree that the SQ would be fine for my application. i know the Novi can produce some awesome numbers, thats why im interested in it. im just looking ahead, for when i have enough $$ to build a forged shortblock. i'd rather already have the blower i need to make more power than have to buy a new one. couldnt i just run a Novi at lower boost (for now, with my stock SB) to produce around 350-385hp? and then when i have a built motor, i'll already have a blower capable of producing 600+. or would running a bigger blower like the Novi at lower boost levels not be as efficient (or good for it/the motor ) as an SQ? im new to the blower game and thats why i'll be asking all the dumb questions as i do research and save up for one.

thanks Jim, and anyone else that can help me

You said you wanted to stay under 385 rwhp. That's why I recommended the SQ. Definitely get the Novi 2000 if a forged shortblock is in your plans. Hold it to a maximum of 400 rwhp until then. Tim may be able to get you a used Novi if you're interested. He sold my Novi for me when I switched to a Kenne Bell.

 

[helty]

You said you wanted to stay under 385 rwhp. That's why I recommended the SQ. Definitely get the Novi 2000 if a forged shortblock is in your plans. Hold it to a maximum of 400 rwhp until then. Tim may be able to get you a used Novi if you're interested. He sold my Novi for me when I switched to a Kenne Bell.

yes, i want to stay under 385 for the time being, just to be safe while i still have my stock internals. sorry, i should have specified my future plans. im in college so if i can save on a used unit (im sure Tim wouldn't sell me a piece of crap) i would be very interested. I'll have to give him a call as my funds grow.

Thanks Jim for all the help

 

[RedGTvert]

ever notice that intercooled P1-SC's make about the same power as non-intercooled S-Trims?

I've owned an S-trim and know what it can do, but generally the P1 makes more power at the same boost levels. Might have something to do with the IC. Now when I added an IC and a 3.33 pully, I was making a little more HP than a comparable P1, but the P1 did have me beat in TQ by a good 20 because of the 4.10 step-up.

There is nothing wrong with the P1, it is a good blower and makes power, but if I was going to do a procharger, I would go with the D1

 

[DBMSTNG]

i'm very dissapointed in you gearbanger.

i'm gonna try to make this short but sweet.

http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12326
392hp/407tq with a P1 - 5spd 8 psi intercooled

me 380hp/370tq SQ - auto 10psi non-intercooled with peak power at only 8-9psi

not the same mods, but close enough for comparison. notice i wrote "about" the same hp. 20-30hp difference isn't a whole lot when comparing intrecooled to non-intercooled at the same PSI. adding an intercooler without pulleying down will yeild 20-30hp no problem. replacing the pulley to compensate for the boost loss will result in more power.

as far as Tim not selling Prochargers anymore, here is the REAL answer.http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6341&page=1&pp=15&highlight=procharger
Surprise! it was because of SEAL PROBLEMS!
i'll throw this in for good measure.
http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12090&page=1&pp=15&highlight=procharger
these weren't just isolated incidents, but rather a pattern obviously not due to customer neglect. you claim to have heard a few problems with Vortech and Paxtons yet say the cause was undetermined. if the blowers siezed, there is a 99% chance it's due to the person owning the car.

as far as manufacturers lying, YES THEY DO!!!! if you believe everything they say, then i'll sell you some turbonators.
maybe it will make that power on some engine, but not the 4.6L 2V. Andy, the co-owner has never seen a 500rwhp P1. is he a liar too? http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11784
here is Tim at MPH saying he's made more power with the S trim than the D1SC, which is LARGER than the P1SC. http://www.modularpowerhouse.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22080&page=1&pp=15&highlight=p1sc
are you going to call him a liar as well?

as far as heat exchangers, that has to do with your comment about heat from roots/twin screw style blowers.

if you do some research, you'll see that i HAVE NOT lied. you have not disproven a single thing i've said. i'm not saying Procharger sucks, i'm just saying the P1-SC isn't as good as the S trim in power or durability. it's a fact, you can call me a liar all you want.

 

[RedGTvert]

No offense DBNSTNG, but I have seen a 500 rwhp P1, it is all in the setup. Please don't call me a liar, because I have been at this way too long.

Although I think the world of Tim and the guys at MPH, they certainly are not the only guys doing a great job in the Modular business and some people might dissagree with what they say.

I am confused how you are making 10# of boost, but peak power was made at 8-9 psi? I made 12# on my 99GT and made power as long as I made boost up through redline.

Also, you are comparing peak numbers. 37 ft.lbs of TQ is a big difference. Look at the power throughout the curve.

They are both good blowers. I still prefer the Vortech, but that is a personal preference, but do not sell the P1 as short as you are trying to.

 

[san~man]

This belongs in tech....lots of good info.

 

[mrvax]

... but discounting a Procharger because of a couple of leaky seal rumors is kinda dumb. For all of the complaints that I've heard (usually recirculated rumors) about the "leaky seal" issue, I've never heard of one leading to the failure of the unit itself.

This is NO rumor, it is a fact. And it's a fact they never really addressed the issue. When I used to post often on Corral, almost everyday someone was complaining about the P1-SC seal leak issue. It went on for over a YEAR with no final fix.

I would personally go with KB or Vortech.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

This is NO rumor, it is a fact. And it's a fact they never really addressed the issue. When I used to post often on Corral, almost everyday someone was complaining about the P1-SC seal leak issue. It went on for over a YEAR with no final fix.

I would personally go with KB or Vortech.

But again I ask. To your knowledge, has one of these leaky seals lead to a complete failure? A couple of units with seal seepage is hardly reason enough to discount the entire blower.

 

[BooWFO]

But again I ask. To your knowledge, has one of these leaky seals lead to a complete failure? A couple of units with seal seepage is hardly reason enough to discount the entire blower.

Solid facts none that I've seen. Leakage issue OH yeah, but it seems to only happen once people start upping the boost from what I've seen. Which could be the cause and hence the reason ATI hasn't really addressed it. I mean come on they say it's warranty at 9psi but you are pushing 12-14psi of boost that's what 30% more than they warranty for?
If you want an bolt on and go setup get the MPH alot of people believe their tunes are spot on from the start.
If your planning on dyno tuning and peicing the rest together I'd get a procharger.

If big Numbers and build engines are in your future, novi2000, Kb 2.2, or turbos.

 

[hotmustang331]

The prochargers are good blowers, but i would go with a novi 2000....it would take a F1-R procharger to beat it. Tim used to have an F1 procharged car pushing 22PSI from what i have read, and he said he would use it again if he did another big build. But thats just what i read.

 

[OleYellarGT]

Ok, here is some information that some people might want to consider. On October 21, 2005 Vortech conducted a test between the P-1sc and their S-trim unit. the conclusion of their test is as follows, "A P-1SC supercharger was tested in accordance with the SAE J-1723 standard, with performance characterized and documented. A compressor map for the P-1SC was developed, which shows a best efficiency island of 59%. This level of efficiency can be classified as mediocre, at best. Operating range (pressure and flow) where the P-1SC exhibits efficiency of 55% or better, is far below the manufacturer’s listed specifications. Rapid oil temperature rise of the so-called “self contained” design, coupled with catastrophic failure at the 45k RPM operating point while on the test stand indicate a practical upper limit of 40k RPM, under continuous operating conditions. Comparing mechanical efficiency to a competing oil-fed supercharger product revealed no advantage. Power coefficients were evaluated which showed the P-1SC would require considerably more input power to deliver an incremental pound (psia) of pressure rise, or incremental pound-per-cubic foot of density rise, at the same flowrate, when compared to a competing product. Lastly, the data revealed absolutely no objective performance criteria to support the claim that the P-1SC exhibits superior performance to the competing product used in this study.
12 of 12 Copyright © 2003-2005
Vortech Engineering, Inc.
All Rights reserved"

Any questions? The Article resides here http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/news/h2h.html

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Ok, here is some information that some people might want to consider. On October 21, 2005 Vortech conducted a test between the P-1sc and their S-trim unit. the conclusion of their test is as follows, "A P-1SC supercharger was tested in accordance with the SAE J-1723 standard, with performance characterized and documented. A compressor map for the P-1SC was developed, which shows a best efficiency island of 59%. This level of efficiency can be classified as mediocre, at best. Operating range (pressure and flow) where the P-1SC exhibits efficiency of 55% or better, is far below the manufacturer’s listed specifications. Rapid oil temperature rise of the so-called “self contained” design, coupled with catastrophic failure at the 45k RPM operating point while on the test stand indicate a practical upper limit of 40k RPM, under continuous operating conditions. Comparing mechanical efficiency to a competing oil-fed supercharger product revealed no advantage. Power coefficients were evaluated which showed the P-1SC would require considerably more input power to deliver an incremental pound (psia) of pressure rise, or incremental pound-per-cubic foot of density rise, at the same flowrate, when compared to a competing product. Lastly, the data revealed absolutely no objective performance criteria to support the claim that the P-1SC exhibits superior performance to the competing product used in this study.
12 of 12 Copyright © 2003-2005
Vortech Engineering, Inc.
All Rights reserved"

Any questions? The Article resides here http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/news/h2h.html

And how could anyone consider a test conducted by Vortech to be bias? You've got to be kidding me. You don't expect the results to come out in ATI's favor, when Vortech is doing the testing, do you?

If you'd like, I'll conduct my own test to show how my '01 Ford Explorer is superior in every way to a Z06 Corvette! It must be true if it's been tested, right?

Consider the source my friend. Not exactly independent test results.

 

[OleYellarGT]

One might consider it to be biased, but I still find the test and results to be interesting to say the least....makes one think, ask questions, and ultimatly do more research....after all isn't that part of the whole modding quest? The knowledge you made a "wise" choice instead of a hap-hazard, money burning hole in pocket, decision? To know your modding effort inside and out, to know it won't blow-up in your face?

Not picking fight, or throwing sand in your face. Just supplying information to those who are asking questions. BY NO MEANS am I an expert or do I claim to be.

 

[03ghoststang]

If you'd like, I'll conduct my own test to show how my '01 Ford Explorer is superior in every way to a Z06 Corvette! It must be true if it's been tested, right?

or even better a KIA Rio lol...........but seriously people buy the S/C it's either due to funds or they have their reasons why, but one S/C aint better then the other they all have their flaws and we just learn to live with them

 

[DBMSTNG]

No offense DBNSTNG, but I have seen a 500 rwhp P1, it is all in the setup. Please don't call me a liar, because I have been at this way too long.

i never said you couldn't make 500 with the P1, it's just very hard to do. unlike the S trim. the P1 is pretty much maxed out at 500 whereas the S trim has gone well over the 600 mark.

Although I think the world of Tim and the guys at MPH, they certainly are not the only guys doing a great job in the Modular business and some people might dissagree with what they say.

they can disagree all they want, but at the end of the day, a fact is a fact. the P1 cannot make as much power as the S trim.

I am confused how you are making 10# of boost, but peak power was made at 8-9 psi? I made 12# on my 99GT and made power as long as I made boost up through redline.

my peak power is at 5500rpm. i make 8-9psi at 5500rpm depending on the temps. i make peak boost at 6000rpm. after 5500rpm, they HP goes flat then takes an ever so small dip down.

Also, you are comparing peak numbers. 37 ft.lbs of TQ is a big difference. Look at the power throughout the curve.

most of that is attributed to the increased timing thanks to the intercooler. the gear ratio in the blower does help some too.

They are both good blowers. I still prefer the Vortech, but that is a personal preference, but do not sell the P1 as short as you are trying to.

huh? please tell me where i sold it short? i stated nothing but FACTS. the P1 is maxed out at about 500rwhp. FACT. the S trim can go over 600rwhp. FACT. the P1 has had seal problems. FACT. it's not as good as the S trim in terms of power or reliability/durability. FACT.

jebus kits people.

 

[DBMSTNG]

The prochargers are good blowers, but i would go with a novi 2000....it would take a F1-R procharger to beat it. Tim used to have an F1 procharged car pushing 22PSI from what i have read, and he said he would use it again if he did another big build. But thats just what i read.

i'm not knocking Procharger in general, they do have some good blowers, the P1 just isn't one of them IMO. i'm really not a Vortech fanboy or anything. i'll take whatever blower makes power and that i don't have to worry about.