need some serious help

riceslayer302

Banned
Oct 3, 2006
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1
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CT
ok guys i have a serious problem, i have a 1990 gt.

the car it runs perfect, the car has idled in my garage for hours without any problems and will drive for short distances a without anything going wrong. but for the second time now when i take it out, it will run fine for anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour then it seems when it is just cruising in fourth gear it will bog right down and come to a stop and shut off. after this happens the car will not start up again.

the first time it happened i tried everything i knew, i changed the mass air, checked fuel pressure. nothing, i took my friend's mass air out of his 89 and put it on my car and it still didnt start. but when i took it to the garage they said it was the mass air meter, they changed it, and the car ran again.

then last night i was driving the car again and the same exact thing happened over again... what do you guys think? have any of you ever seen a car toast mass air meters? what could the problem be?

when it happens, it feels like the car is being deprived of fuel and it sputters out, putting your foot on the gas only makes it bog down worse, i didnt notice any pops like a car does when it runs out of gas. to me it seems like when the car is at operating temp it is blowing the mass air meter.

PLEASE HELP GUYS IM STUMPED
 
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What codes are you seeing?

WHen it wont restart, do you have spark or injector pulsing? If none of either, think PIP.

If you have inj pulsing but no spark, think TFI or possibly the coil.

JRichker has a nifty checklist for this - he will post it soon. You will have to wait for the car to crap out to run through the list however (I'd let it idle in the driveway till it takes a dump).

If needed:
A parts store can bench test the TFI - ask them to do it repeatedly since the issue crops up when the car is hot (repeated bench testing heats the TFI up to simulate when your issue occurs.
I suppose you could carefully use a hair dryer on the TFI if you think that's it (the critical temp for TFI's is 257*F).

Good luck.
 
with the car dead in my driveway cold, it is plugging codes 21, 24, and 67.

actron code readings:

21: engine coolant temperature (ect) sensor voltage out of range (key on engine off self-test) not at normal operating temperature or loss of signal, OR electronic distributerless ignition system (EDIS) fault - problems with crankshaft position sensor (CPS) circuit.

24: air charge temperature sensor or vane air temperature sensor - signal voltage is out of specification or not at normal levels. OR electronic distributerless ignition system (EDIS) fault - failure in coil 1 primary circuit.

67: improper signals are being recieved from either the neutral drive switch, neutral gear switch, neutral pressure switch, clutch switch, manual lever position, sensor or air conditioner clutch. OR A/C on during test.

car has AC delete so...
 
TFI module you need a special socket that your local auto parts store should sell. the PIP sensor, from what i've read you have to take the distributor out of the car and take the center shaft out, someone correct me if im wrong. i'd have the TFI module tested before buying a new one.
 
it sounds alot like the problem i am having, the car will run perfectly for an hour or so then shut down, i need to charge my battery and see if the car will start up again, i am not sure yet.

is there any other possibility? the mass air was changed in october and the car hasnt been driven since, i find it hard to believe the mass air is going again...
 
AH HA!! The exact same thing would happen to me, turns out the alternator would only charge 2-4v just enough to keep it running, but wouldnt charge the batt, and it would only get 2 startups per full charge, I had to get a 1050cca (cold cranking amps) batt, to achieve 2 startups, then I would charge it fully and do the same again. All this and THEN find out the alt was toast!!! Have autozone or the like test the alt and the tfi. The fuel pump will shut off most times from not having enough juice, and that also causes a lean condition, does it pop or backfire any?
 
Code 21 – ECT sensor out of range. Broken or damaged wiring, bad ECT sensor.
Note that that if the outside air temp is below 50 degrees F that the test for the
ECT can be in error.


The ECT sensor has absolutely nothing to do with the temperature gauge. They are
different animals. The ECT sensor is normally located it the RH front of the engine in
the water feed tubes for the heater.

The ACT & ECT have the same thermistor, so the table values are the same

ACT & ECT test data:

Use Pin 46 on the computer for ground for both ECT & ACT to get most accurate
readings.

Pin 7 on the computer - ECT signal in. at 176 degrees F it should be .80 volts

Pin 25 on the computer - ACT signal in. at 50 degrees F it should be 3.5 volts. It is
a good number if the ACT is mounted in the inlet airbox. If it is mounted in the lower
intake manifold, the voltage readings will be lower because of the heat transfer.

Voltages may be measured across the ECT/ACT by probing the connector from
the rear. A pair of safety pins may be helpful in doing this. Use care in doing it
so that you don't damage the wiring or connector.

Here's the table :

68 degrees F = 3.02 v
86 degrees F = 2.62 v
104 degrees F = 2.16 v
122 degrees F = 1.72 v
140 degrees F = 1.35 v
158 degrees F = 1.04 v
176 degrees F = .80 v
194 degrees F = .61

Note that all resistance tests must be done with power off. Measuring resistance
with a circuit powered on will give false readings and possibly damage the meter.


Ohms measures at the computer with the computer disconnected, or at the sensor
with the sensor disconnected.
50 degrees F = 58.75 K ohms
68 degrees F = 37.30 K ohms
86 degrees F = 27.27 K ohms
104 degrees F = 16.15 K ohms
122 degrees F = 10.97 K ohms
140 degrees F = 7.60 K ohms
158 degrees F = 5.37 K ohms
176 degrees F = 3.84 K ohms
194 degrees F = 2.80 K ohms

Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds

88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif


See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds
(website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif


Code 24 - Intake Air Temperature (ACT) sensor out of range. Bad sensor, bad wiring.
The ACT for Mustangs built before 95 is in the #5 intake runner. It measures the air temperature
in the intake to help computer the proper air/fuel ratio.

Note that that if the outside air temp is below 50 degrees F that the test for the ACT can be in error.

ACT & ECT test data:

The ACT & ECT have the same thermistor, so the table values are the same

Pin 7 on the computer - ECT signal in. at 176 degrees F it should be .80 volts

Pin 25 on the computer - ACT signal in. at 50 degrees F it should be 3.5 volts. It is a good number
if the ACT is mounted in the inlet airbox. If it is mounted in the lower intake manifold, the voltage
readings will be lower because of the heat transfer. Here's the table :


Code 67 - clutch not depressed (5 speed) or car not in neutral or park (auto) or
A/C in On position when codes where dumped. Possible neutral safety switch or wiring problem.
This code may prevent you from running the Key On Engine On tests. You can generally
ignore this code, since it has no effect on engine performance.

Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected Mustangs

Revised 18-Oct-2006 to include TFI fault during crank/run cycle
All text applies to
all models unless stated otherwise.


Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red

1.) Remove push on connector from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch on.
Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor
& and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter
solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter,
is helpful to be sure they have power to them.
No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped
B.) Coil
C.) TFI module
D.) PIP sensor in distributor. See paragraph 3A - a noid light will tell if the pip is working by flashing
when the engine is cranking.
E.) No ECC or computer power - ECC or computer relay failure
86-93 models only:
ECC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires
94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
F.) No ECC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse
links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid.
94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire.
H.) Computer
J.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the
engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red wire) off the starter relay (Looks
like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a
problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire
on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI.

See the following links for wiring diagrams...

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/16/71/3c/0900823d8016713c.jsp for 79-88 model cars
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 86 model http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80167158.gif
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 87 model http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d8016715e.gif
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 88 model http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80167162.gif

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/19/59/5a/0900823d8019595a.jsp for 89-93 model cars
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 89-90 cars http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d8019595f.gif
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 91-93 cars
http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80195960.gif

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1d/db/3c/0900823d801ddb3c.jsp
for 94-98 model cars


2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark.
No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil

3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so.
Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it.
Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.
Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of
fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.

Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on.
It should run for 5-20 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the ECC
test connector and jump the connector in the Upper RH corner to ground.
attachment.php


If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure –
remove the cap from the schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel
should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In pinch you
can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate,
but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have.

No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering
the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92.
On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts
at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) 86-93 models only: Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue
wire on the fuel pump relay. The fuse links live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.
94-95 models only: 20 amp fuel pump fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the
Dark green/yellow wire on the constant control relay module.

F.) Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and inspect for fuel
escaping while the pump is running.

Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.

A.) A Noid light available from Autozone, is one way to test the injector wiring.
B.) I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel
rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the i
njector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch
on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.

a.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
b.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at
the rear of the upper manifold).
c.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the
orange/black wire on the ECC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.


4.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.

A.) Failed IAB (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car.
B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently).
D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.
 
Try HISSIN's suggestion...have the parts store test it before you slap down $40 for a new one. If the PIP is caca, then I'd just get a new dizzy...cuz I'm lazy like that. :rolleyes:

just use jrichker's t/s flowchart-lengthy at times, but beyond reliable and covers every possible fault

good luck! :nice:
 
ok, progress... today i charged the battery, and the car started right up like new... so i concluded it was the TFI module. let the car run for 5 minutes and it started bogging down and sputtered out. changed the battery with my truck's battery, now it turns over but no start. so i changed the TFI, same thing, car will start and run for about 3 seconds and shut right off. fuel pressure great, fuel is clean. took my friends mass air off his 89 gt and put it on my car, same thing. PULLED OFF MASS AIR AND BLOCKED THROTTLE BODY AND CAR STARTS AND RUNS IF YOU LET LITTLE BITS OF AIR IN BETWEEN FINGERS.