Digital Tuning Going heads/cam/intake. Do I need a tune?

[2000xp8]

Most know here i've seen it all run just fine no tune.
I've even seen tunes make things worse and I don't believe NA there is much HP left on the table, so if you think it's being done for more power, most likely you are mistaken.

With that said, 185cc heads are quite large for a NA 302 so is that intake, which is fine, except no chance i'm running that setup with an off the shelf cam, it could leave drivability poor down low, in turn probably taking the tune from optional to required.
This would be a custom situation for me for sure.
The custom cam will also put it in 30's territory.

IMO, worry about the correct parts before you worry about the tune.

 

[karhoot]

Most know here i've seen it all run just fine no tune.
I've even seen tunes make things worse and I don't believe NA there is much HP left on the table, so if you think it's being done for more power, most likely you are mistaken.

With that said, 185cc heads are quite large for a NA 302 so is that intake, which is fine, except no chance i'm running that setup with an off the shelf cam, it could leave drivability poor down low, in turn probably taking the tune from optional to required.
This would be a custom situation for me for sure.
The custom cam will also put it in 30's territory.

IMO, worry about the correct parts before you worry about the tune.

Good insight. I’ve been a lot of contradicting factors regarding HCI pairing. With these heads and that intake, which cam should I have gone for? As everything is still boxed, returns are easy at this point in the build.

 

[2000xp8]

There are a couple ways to look at it, some like to leave room for the future, I kinda prefer to make the best for the present.

The best i've seen to date is 359rwhp on a stock 302, afr165s, rpmII intake 70mm tb (the rpmII won't take more than a 70mm without porting), custom cam 30lb injectors. 80mm meter.
Even guys here have done it with similar results.

The problem with planning for the future like a 363, the cam probably won't work, you may be able to use larger heads etc. The 30s will work though, it's nearly impossible to exceed them NA on a 302 based block.

I probably would keep and use the heads (assuming they clear the pistons).
But there is no chance i'm using anything but a custom cam.

 

[karhoot]

There are a couple ways to look at it, some like to leave room for the future, I kinda prefer to make the best for the present.

The best i've seen to date is 359rwhp on a stock 302, afr165s, rpmII intake 70mm tb (the rpmII won't take more than a 70mm without porting), custom cam 30lb injectors. 80mm meter.
Even guys here have done it with similar results.

The problem with planning for the future like a 363, the cam probably won't work, you may be able to use larger heads etc. The 30s will work though, it's nearly impossible to exceed them NA on a 302 based block.

I probably would keep and use the heads (assuming they clear the pistons).
But there is no chance i'm using anything but a custom cam.

Spoke with the machine shop and they actually don't do custom cams, nor do I know how to "size" one.

 

[gkomo]

I think you would custom order one from like Ed Curtis (FTI?) or a similar business.

 

[Noobz347]

This is a good watch.

The 165s are pretty damned impressive and still has room to grow on even a larger displacement combo down the road.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqeDuOZtYPs


If you already have the 185s, I would def stick with those.

 

[karhoot]

There are a couple ways to look at it, some like to leave room for the future, I kinda prefer to make the best for the present.

The best i've seen to date is 359rwhp on a stock 302, afr165s, rpmII intake 70mm tb (the rpmII won't take more than a 70mm without porting), custom cam 30lb injectors. 80mm meter.
Even guys here have done it with similar results.

The problem with planning for the future like a 363, the cam probably won't work, you may be able to use larger heads etc. The 30s will work though, it's nearly impossible to exceed them NA on a 302 based block.

I probably would keep and use the heads (assuming they clear the pistons).
But there is no chance i'm using anything but a custom cam.

Ignorance, but learning. What would be a potential danger in using an "OTS" cam? If PTV clearance is there, what harm is there? Not being defiant, just trying to learn more.

 

[Noobz347]

Ignorance, but learning. What would be a potential danger in using an "OTS" cam? If PTV clearance is there, what harm is there? Not being defiant, just trying to learn more.

The potential is that it's a mismatch for the rest of the combo and the engine ends up being "lazy".

 

[karhoot]

The potential is that it's a mismatch for the rest of the combo and the engine ends up being "lazy".

Understood. Are there any OTS cams that are recommended with my setup or is a custom grind my only option. Called around, lead times are 6-8+ weeks out

 

[Noobz347]

Understood. Are there any OTS cams that are recommended with my setup or is a custom grind my only option. Called around, lead times are 6-8+ weeks out

Now, a "custom cam" does not always mean that somebody is going out to the shop to grind a one-off that's never been ground before.


Think of the cam selection more like this:

You got a guy that looks at combo, does a little math, and selects a cam appropriate for that engine.

 

[karhoot]

Now, a "custom cam" does not always mean that somebody is going out to the shop to grind a one-off that's never been ground before.


Think of the cam selection more like this:

You got a guy that looks at combo, does a little math, and selects a cam appropriate for that engine.

Oh wtf. See I'm learning constantly. This is what Bullet Cam suggested:

.222 intake
.230 exhaust
.550" int lift
.555" exhaust lift
.111.5-112 LOPE angle

4 DEGREES BEFORE AHEAD TIMING


So..... Now I just "find" a cam that best matches that? I appreciate the patience with answering these questions!

 

[Noobz347]

Oh wtf. See I'm learning constantly. This is what Bullet Cam suggested:

.222 intake
.230 exhaust
.550" int lift
.555" exhaust lift
.111.5-112 LOPE angle

4 DEGREES BEFORE AHEAD TIMING


So..... Now I just "find" a cam that best matches that? I appreciate the patience with answering these questions!

Ok... Let's see what we can find...


The F303 Plus: 226/234 @ .050, .550/.540 lift, 114 LSA, and listed as +4 advanced

That one is the closest off-the-shelf that I found using your given numbers.

 

[Noobz347]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMyPYeq7Ogw

 

[Noobz347]

Just as a sanity check, here is where I'm at with this combo and what folks have covered so far:

F303 Plus
AFR 185s
Explorer intake
70mm TB
manual trans
3.55 or 3.73 gears
30 lb injectors
real A9L tune/chip
proper springs and PTV check

 

[karhoot]

Just as a sanity check, here is where I'm at with this combo and what folks have covered so far:

F303 Plus
AFR 185s
Explorer intake
70mm TB
manual trans
3.55 or 3.73 gears
30 lb injectors
real A9L tune/chip
proper springs and PTV check

This is what folks have figured yes. Mine goes as follows:

AFR Enforcer 185s (1.9" intakes)
Edlebrock RPM Intake (same price as Explorer in my case)
75mm TB (to pair w/ RPM)
Manual Trans
3.73 gears as of last month
24lb injectors (free, brand new in box)
MAF conversion w/ 75mm 24lb MAF sensor
Compression test (dry) 145-150psi on each cylinder. 145 lowest, 150 highest

And now, F303 Plus

 

[AeroCoupe]

If you are going to use a letter cam just call Comp Cams and have them recommend one of theirs. I had great luck with them before moving to an Ed Curtis cam.

 

[Noobz347]

If you are going to use a letter cam just call Comp Cams and have them recommend one of theirs. I had great luck with them before moving to an Ed Curtis cam.

It's actually a Summit cam.

 

[2000xp8]

Look, the risk with not buying the correct cam when using oversized parts is that the powerband could land up being at high rpm.
Which will be great running wide open throttle, but awful in traffic, parking lots and probably even getting the car out of the garage.

There was a good chance your custom cam was going to come from Comp anyway. So if you can't wait the 6-8 weeks (which I would) for an expert, there is always the possibility their guys know what you should use.
I'm sure there are plenty of people with identical "custom" cams, but without everyone sharing their specs online and minor variances in setups, there really isn't a way to know.

 

[AeroCoupe]

This. My Ed Curtis cam was ground by Comp. I had two really nice cams from comp in previous what I would call bolt on motors and they worked great. I am 100% sure a custom cam would have made more hp in both applications but not what I considered worth the money. In the OP's case I would call Comp Cams and see what they recommend. If it is a better cam than what you already have then return the other one and get the Comp Cams bump stick.

I ran AFR 185's on my old 306 with a Comp Cam and the car ran really well. I bought the 185's knowing I was going to move up to a larger displacement motor but 165's would have been a better choice if I was going to stay with the smaller displacement.

 

[karhoot]

Look, the risk with not buying the correct cam when using oversized parts is that the powerband could land up being at high rpm.
Which will be great running wide open throttle, but awful in traffic, parking lots and probably even getting the car out of the garage.

There was a good chance your custom cam was going to come from Comp anyway. So if you can't wait the 6-8 weeks (which I would) for an expert, there is always the possibility their guys know what you should use.
I'm sure there are plenty of people with identical "custom" cams, but without everyone sharing their specs online and minor variances in setups, there really isn't a way to

Called comp & they recommended a XE274HR