New AOD, having problems shifting, TV pressure issue..

[Gen414]

OK guys, been awhile. Short version: Brothers Mustang, had C4 in it, blew up 3rd. Wanted OD again, and even though I run a performance shop, Ive never rebuilt auto's before. Just never been my thing. So, Bro found a (at the time it was) good deal on a built AOD, supposed to be good for 450+HP with converter.
So, he buys it. Now, mind you, this has played out awhile longer, because it IS for my Brother, and not a paying customer. So, customer comes in, my Brothers car gets pushed to ths side, which my Brother is OK with.
Anyways, get tranny in car, start it up, drive for 100 YARDS (yes, you read that right) turned around, so could double check fluid level.
Fluid level fine. So, go to back out, no reverse. No drive. Nothing. Basically figure out it's pump thats bad. Call trans shop (they are in Florida, Im in TX), they tell me it's my fault because I installed converter wrong. Well, even though Ive never REBUILT an auto, Ive installed HUNDREDS, if not THOUSANDS of auto's over the years in my customers cars (been at this for 25 years now).
Anyways, IVE NEVER had this happen to me, and guy is arguing with me, blah blah blah...I find oil pump for $80 on the 'Net, buy it. Put it in, and start car up, and motor runs MAYBE 30 SECONDS without me even putting it into gear, and motor dies. Felt like MOTOR locked up. Try to start it, starter wont budge. Put my breaker bar on balancer bolt, motor wont budge clockwise, but will turn counter clockwise, so know it's tranny.

Yank tranny AGAIN, this time converter snout is trashed, yanked pump bushing out with it (was welded to snout). Oil pumpgears had BROKEN, and Im like SOMETHING aint right. Well, I buy the ATSG repair manul for AOD..I figure if I can rebuild motors, specialize in manual tranny rebuilds, do certified cages/chassis, I can take a peak inside an auto.

So, break down AOD, and find that the #3 Needle bearing taht is sandwhiched between the Forward Hub and forward clutch, is shattered in a millions pieces. Also find the Forward Sun gear bushing is chewed up, and the direct driveshaft, on one end, looks like someone had taken a grinder to it, and buthchered the hell out of it.

Also, i notice that there is a "hole" in the bottom of the tranny, like where a part is SUPPOSED to be, but nowhere to be found. It turns out, that location is for the 3-4 accumulator

So, run these parts over to a "professional" trans shop close by, to see what they think.

They have zero idea on why the needle bearing is trashed, no idea why the 3-4 accumulator is missing, and no idea why the direct driveshaft, one end, is butchered like that.

Only thing they can tell me why I keep having oil pump problems is either wrong install (my fault) or TQ converter is machined wrong, or there has been metal in tranny and getting hung up in oil pump.

I tell them that Ive been doing this 25 years, and Ive never run into this, and after the FIRST oil pump failure, before I installed tranny, I checked converter 10 times if I checked it once. I went as far as to measure from face of bellhousing of trans, to the mounting lugs on converter, to get my "depth", I then measured from back of engine block, to the flywheel lugs for converter studs, and did my math, and it was spot on. So, I KNOW that the 2nd time I installed converter, IT WAS INSTALLED CORRECTLY, NO DOUBT ABOUT IT! Again, Ive done this many times, with no failures, and then for it to happen TWICE on the same tranny in 2 weeks time? AND, because of teh extent I went through to make SURE converter was installed correctly, NO WAY.

So, I call florida trans shop to get some answers from them, and they draw a blank on #3 needle bearing, forward sun gear...they do tell me they DO grind the direct driveshaft for better oil flow. Hmmm, well, ok. Not saying this is BS, but local trany shop was stumped when i showed it to them (they were NOT a performance trans shop, so, maybe, maybe not????) So, I'll give it to them on this (even though it looked like dog mess, would think if gonna modify it, would take more time, as there WAS sharp edges left on direct driveshaft, so maybe metal broke off of it, and got caught in system????

OK, thier reason for NO 3-4 accumulator, is that they say SOME AOD's do NOT come with a 3-4 accumulator. Now, I would think FOR SURE that the local trans shop would something about that, but they were completely dumb founded when I said NO 3-4 accumulator, and was told it HAS to ahve it. Florida trans shop sticks with story, and says SOME do NOT use it.

EDIT:I went through my ATSG repair manual for AOD, and NOWHERE does it say nothing about NOT having a 3-4 accumulator. It DOES say that some models have different style's 3-4 accumulator. So, Im confused on that one.

They then tell me, I am installing converter wrong, and THAT is my problem, but gonna send me parts anyways. Gonna send mew oil pump, needle bearing kit, all new bushing, gaskets, TQ converter.

So, I inspect and go through whole tranny myself, checking clearances along the way, and as Im putting things back toghether, everything is going back together just fine, but I do find that some specs are out, like for example, the intermediate clutch clearance was too loose (measured out at 1.655, and calls for 1.634-1.636. So, had to get a thicker selective steel seperator plate to tighter it up some.

Oh, when I recieve parts, the box was ripped wide open, and all of my parts...needle bearings, bushings, etc.. were NOT in like plastic baggies..they were "loose", and I end up receiving only 2 of my needle bearings, NO bushings, no rings, no thrust washers, nothing, like everything got dumped out of box.
So, I end up buying parts from local guy, and sending bill to florida shop.


OK, guys, if you wanted to skip straight to my problem, here it is:


Got tranny back together, and went to drive, and from 1st to 2nd, was PERFECT, nice firm shift, but didnt want to shift into 3rd or OD, stayed in 2nd. Slowed down, started over, same thing.

Adjusted TV cable (loosened jam nut on TB, pulled inner cable towards front of car, AWAY from firewall, just a smidge, JUST to put some tension on it.) and went and drove it, and now it shifts into 3rd and OD, BUT, it shifts from 1st to 2nd VERY quickly.
So, come back, loosen jamb nut, and pull on cable just a wee bit more, and go and drive it, and now, it wont stay in 1st gear but for 2 or 3 feet. I mean, literally, as soon as you take off, it shifts in 2nd gear, and then will shift into 3rd and OD jsut fine.


So, call company we bought the TV cable from (performace automatic) and he tells me, I really need to check pressure, and NOT go by "feel", and tells me, In PARK, at idle, pressure should be 0-3 PSI, and with the "tool" installed, that came with TV cable, it should be @ 25-35PSI. Well, Im not sure if this cable didnt come with tool, or it's jsut misplaced (going on a YEAR that Ive had this car/trans/cable), but decide to check readings anywas without tool, but cable hooked up. For this test, I went back to my "original" settings, and installed cable EXACLTY like directions say to. At that setting, I am getting 0 (zero) PSI at idle, in PARK, and I decided to grab lever on side of tranny, where TV cable is hooked up, and moved it forward, like someone was stepping on the gas (but engine speed remained at idle), and pressure topped out at @ 25 PSI, and I moved arm ALL the way until it stopped.

I then, used the throttle itself, and revved the motor, to see what pressure would do, and basically, it stayed near zero, unless I REALLy got into throttle (still in Park).

So, that is where I am at, and wanted some answers before I continue on.

Are my readings correct? or should they have been HIGHER when I moved the arm on tranny manually? What about when engine speed increased, what should pressure have been?

if those ARE right, why is tranny shifting so lazy?

I thought that the more you pulled cable AWAY from firewall, and towards front of car, the LATER the shift, AND the firmer the shift? But, in this case, Im getting teh EXACT oppostie. it seems, the more I pulled cable, the SOONER the trans shifted, AND the SOFTER it shifted.

Again, when I FIRST got trany back together, and it would NOT shift in 3rd or OD, the shift from 1st to 2nd was PERFECT. I mean, NICE and FIRM, and under moderate accelleration, it shifted @ 3500 RPM. Again, PERFECT, BUT NO 3rd/OD. then, start playing with TV cable and start getting SOONER 1st to 2nd shifts, and very soft at that, but I AM getting it to shift into 3rd and OD.

LAST THING: When I tore tranny apart, and went through Valve body and cleaned it out, I REUSED the gaskets. Now, remember, these gaskets have a total of 200 YARDS drive time, and MAYBE 30 SECONDS sitting still/idel time, so would figure it would be OK to reuse. Or not?

Ok guys, i know I got really really long winded, and I know alot if not most of you will not read this because it is so long, but thsoe that do, and can help me, or offer some advice, wow, GREAT appreciated.

Thanks guys!

Ok, I dont proofread, so if you find mispellings, i CAN spell, I just cant type is all....

 

[Gen414]

I guess I need to get to the point..if you want details of how I got here, read above:



SO, MAIN QUESTION:

What will cause my AOD to shift to soon from 1st to 2nd gear?

 

[4rdnut]

The reason it shifts from first to second super fast is ford engineers were smoking crack when they designed this transmission, take the aod out and throw it off a cliff, the amount of money it will take to make the aod trans bullet proof and shift right both manually and automatically, you can do a manual t5 conversion for less if you really need that overdrive so bad, if not put a c4 back in from performance automatics.

 

[Gen414]

Yes, I do know that the AOD is not the one for the record books, but it is what it is, and is what my Brother bought. And right now, just need a trans that shifts/works, and we know that it can do that.
We're not asking it to live behind a 700 HP monster, just about 400-450HP, on the street, with regular street tires ( no drag radials, and hence, no sticky tires/track use).
My Brother jsut wants to cruise the car and have fun.


And yes, I wanted him to put a 6 speed in (and especially since I specialize in manual tranny rebuilds, and Im currently going after the quickest T56/LS1 combo which stands at 8.69), but at teh time, he didnt want to put the money in to it, and is why the AOD. IF the car had a stick in it to begin with, could ahve justified it. But pedals, cable, bell, clutch, shifter, trans, etc....easily over $2000K by time all said and done.

Thanks for input, but I REALLY need info on why trans is doing what it is doing, so I an get it corrected (and NO, I'll NEVER UNDERSTAND WHY ANYONE WOULD USE AN EXTERNAL LINKAGE/CABLE USING THROTTLE INPUT TO ADJUST PRESSURE)

 

[Gen414]

Ok guys, as you can see, Im still at it. I havent had the car back on lift yet since I posted, for 1, woud like info to try before I get it back on there, and 2, been at it with customers cars.


So, question still out there:

Why is the AOD shifting so quickly from 1st to 2nd gear???

Also, I am ASSUMING I am adjusting cable correctly...Im loosening nut (allen head that holds inner cable), and pulling cable AWAY from firewall and towards FRONT of the car, and that should RAISE PRESSURE AND DELAY SHIFTS, CORRECT??????


If that is the case, then WHY is trans doing EXACT OPPOSITE?

 

[FoMoCo17]

Wow, what a post to read ... kinda long ... but a few things came to light as I read it.

Firstly, you stated you have installed torque converters for 25 years and then found the transmission pumps bearing welded to the torque convertor. My take is either the bushing was installed wrong and was not getting oiled properly and seized which created your problem. I staked mine when I installed it as an added safety feature. Don't remember if a hole is in the bushing or if an oiling channel is present. I believe it is a channel which need to be aligned a certain way which should be outlined in your AOD trans book. So, possibly the original rebuilder srewed that one up possibly. Once this failure took place, the rest could have resulted so I wouln't sweat that.

As for the 3-4 accumulator, SOME transmissions DO NOT have these. My 1990 Mustang GT does not have one and I just rebuilt it last year and asked PATC in Alabama about one and they said if you do not have one do not put one in. My car is supercharged and the trans can hold up to 500 hp so it works fine with out it. An accumulator is just like a shock asorber in a hydraulic system. And there really is not that much shock in the 3-4 shift.

Lastly, the TV Pressure adjustment is crucual. Leave the lever alone on the side of the trans. Get a gauge and hook it up to the TV Pressure port (a harbor freight gauge set works great and has the fittings ... think it was an oil pressure gauge set). It needs to be at least 25-30 (25 minumum) with the gauge block installed with just the cable wire pulled out and guge inserted (next to throttle body). I have mine at 38 psi for a better firmer shift. Being a little higher is okay ... but too low will not hold the clutches under load or in drive etc.. Anyway, if it is off, pull the gauge out and depress the button on the block and tighten up the cable a bit and reset tab to lock it. Re-insert the gauge and check the pressure again (running in park). once in specification listed above, you are done. If the gauge reading is zero w/o the gauge and 25 with the gauge, raise it to 30 with the gauge block installed. At some point, when the gauge block is removed, you should read that 3 psi or so. I believe the range is 0-5 psi w/o the gauge installed. But, I always like to see a little bit of pressure there so 3-5 psi is great ... 5 is max. As I stated above, I keep my TV pressure set between 38-40 psi w/o any problems it holds the clutches progressively as the throttle is opened. Also make sure your TV Pressure throttle bushing is good and tight. If it is not, replace it they are cheap and if the TV cable falls out, you burn up overdrive, then drive etc.. I do not remember from your post if you have the gauge but that size can be found in a manual or call Transgo and they can tell you what size it should be. Mic a drill then take a hacksaw and cut a groove in it and attach it over the TV cable and it shall act as your gauge (everyone has drills of different diameters.

Auto trans are not too hard to rebuild if you read up on them and know the tricks. The AOD requires a few tools (I made them) to work with a dial indicator and to align things up. The servo pistons were tough with this particular case.

Finally, the shifting problem after all of this may be due to particles in your valve body causing things to act up. It really needs to be rebuilt ot replaced at this time. I just got one from Lentech (though not cheap ... but now I can hold 2nd gear ;-)))) Anyway, I would also recommend a new tv pressure valve (sonnax) and a new revised ramp pressure valve (sonnax) with a Transgo shift kit if you do not want to spring for a Lentech valve body. this worked great for me and the trans shifted hard, and really launched the car between the 1-2 shift. The valve body is the brains and they are critical to operation period!!! Any dirt or not torqueing it in properly can impact how things work or even if they will work properly. Lastly, put a cooler on it to keep the temps down.

Hope all of this helps you! Heck, you made me write a book here like you did! ;-)))

 

[rustyruststang5]

wow i have a aod with the same problem as the op. just shifts way to fast. i tried to pick up on what fomoco was saying about the t.v. cable pressure because i know that is important. you said you use a harbor friege oil pressure gauge to set your t.v. cable pressure?

 

[Gen414]

Wow, what a post to read ... kinda long ... but a few things came to light as I read it.

Firstly, you stated you have installed torque converters for 25 years and then found the transmission pumps bearing welded to the torque convertor. My take is either the bushing was installed wrong and was not getting oiled properly and seized which created your problem. I staked mine when I installed it as an added safety feature. Don't remember if a hole is in the bushing or if an oiling channel is present. I believe it is a channel which need to be aligned a certain way which should be outlined in your AOD trans book. So, possibly the original rebuilder srewed that one up possibly. Once this failure took place, the rest could have resulted so I wouln't sweat that.

As for the 3-4 accumulator, SOME transmissions DO NOT have these. My 1990 Mustang GT does not have one and I just rebuilt it last year and asked PATC in Alabama about one and they said if you do not have one do not put one in. My car is supercharged and the trans can hold up to 500 hp so it works fine with out it. An accumulator is just like a shock asorber in a hydraulic system. And there really is not that much shock in the 3-4 shift.

Lastly, the TV Pressure adjustment is crucual. Leave the lever alone on the side of the trans. Get a gauge and hook it up to the TV Pressure port (a harbor freight gauge set works great and has the fittings ... think it was an oil pressure gauge set). It needs to be at least 25-30 (25 minumum) with the gauge block installed with just the cable wire pulled out and guge inserted (next to throttle body). I have mine at 38 psi for a better firmer shift. Being a little higher is okay ... but too low will not hold the clutches under load or in drive etc.. Anyway, if it is off, pull the gauge out and depress the button on the block and tighten up the cable a bit and reset tab to lock it. Re-insert the gauge and check the pressure again (running in park). once in specification listed above, you are done. If the gauge reading is zero w/o the gauge and 25 with the gauge, raise it to 30 with the gauge block installed. At some point, when the gauge block is removed, you should read that 3 psi or so. I believe the range is 0-5 psi w/o the gauge installed. But, I always like to see a little bit of pressure there so 3-5 psi is great ... 5 is max. As I stated above, I keep my TV pressure set between 38-40 psi w/o any problems it holds the clutches progressively as the throttle is opened. Also make sure your TV Pressure throttle bushing is good and tight. If it is not, replace it they are cheap and if the TV cable falls out, you burn up overdrive, then drive etc.. I do not remember from your post if you have the gauge but that size can be found in a manual or call Transgo and they can tell you what size it should be. Mic a drill then take a hacksaw and cut a groove in it and attach it over the TV cable and it shall act as your gauge (everyone has drills of different diameters.

Auto trans are not too hard to rebuild if you read up on them and know the tricks. The AOD requires a few tools (I made them) to work with a dial indicator and to align things up. The servo pistons were tough with this particular case.

Finally, the shifting problem after all of this may be due to particles in your valve body causing things to act up. It really needs to be rebuilt ot replaced at this time. I just got one from Lentech (though not cheap ... but now I can hold 2nd gear ;-)))) Anyway, I would also recommend a new tv pressure valve (sonnax) and a new revised ramp pressure valve (sonnax) with a Transgo shift kit if you do not want to spring for a Lentech valve body. this worked great for me and the trans shifted hard, and really launched the car between the 1-2 shift. The valve body is the brains and they are critical to operation period!!! Any dirt or not torqueing it in properly can impact how things work or even if they will work properly. Lastly, put a cooler on it to keep the temps down.

Hope all of this helps you! Heck, you made me write a book here like you did! ;-)))

OK, NOW we are getting somewhere..first of all THANK YOU. I DO have some questions, and I will ask that in my response..I just wanted to say thanks right now, question to follow...

 

[Gen414]

Wow, what a post to read ... kinda long ... but a few things came to light as I read it.

Yeah, I get long winded...sorry

Firstly, you stated you have installed torque converters for 25 years and then found the transmission pumps bearing welded to the torque convertor.

Well, the 2nd one was welded to converter, and you are right, I DIDNT notice the "dimple" on the bushing on it, so more then likely it wasnt "staked" to keep in place.

My take is either the bushing was installed wrong and was not getting oiled properly and seized which created your problem. I staked mine when I installed it as an added safety feature. Don't remember if a hole is in the bushing or if an oiling channel is present. I believe it is a channel which need to be aligned a certain way which should be outlined in your AOD trans book. So, possibly the original rebuilder srewed that one up possibly. Once this failure took place, the rest could have resulted so I wouln't sweat that.

As for the 3-4 accumulator, SOME transmissions DO NOT have these. My 1990 Mustang GT does not have one and I just rebuilt it last year and asked PATC in Alabama about one and they said if you do not have one do not put one in. My car is supercharged and the trans can hold up to 500 hp so it works fine with out it. An accumulator is just like a shock asorber in a hydraulic system. And there really is not that much shock in the 3-4 shift.

OK, thanks for clearing that up for me

Lastly, the TV Pressure adjustment is crucual. Leave the lever alone on the side of the trans. Get a gauge and hook it up to the TV Pressure port (a harbor freight gauge set works great and has the fittings ... think it was an oil pressure gauge set). It needs to be at least 25-30 (25 minumum) with the gauge block installed

Where can I get the gauge block?

with just the cable wire pulled out and guge inserted (next to throttle body). I have mine at 38 psi for a better firmer shift. Being a little higher is okay ... but too low will not hold the clutches under load or in drive etc.. Anyway, if it is off, pull the gauge out and depress the button on the block

(depress what button? )

and tighten up the cable a bit and reset tab to lock it. Re-insert the gauge and check the pressure again (running in park). once in specification listed above, you are done. If the gauge reading is zero w/o the gauge and 25 with the gauge, raise it to 30 with the gauge block installed. At some point, when the gauge block is removed, you should read that 3 psi or so. I believe the range is 0-5 psi w/o the gauge installed. But, I always like to see a little bit of pressure there so 3-5 psi is great ... 5 is max. As I stated above, I keep my TV pressure set between 38-40 psi w/o any problems it holds the clutches progressively as the throttle is opened. Also make sure your TV Pressure throttle bushing is good and tight.
The cable is a brand new one from Performance Automatic, the cable, bracket, and the allen head fitting that attaches to the throttle and inner cable slides through
If it is not, replace it they are cheap and if the TV cable falls out, you burn up overdrive, then drive etc.. I do not remember from your post if you have the gauge but that size can be found in a manual or call Transgo and they can tell you what size it should be.
Not sure I follow you here??? Again, what gauge? I dont have the "tool" that you are supposed to attach to the throttle or something so you can check TV pressure properly, is that what you mean?
Mic a drill then take a hacksaw and cut a groove in it and attach it over the TV cable and it shall act as your gauge (everyone has drills of different diameters.

Auto trans are not too hard to rebuild if you read up on them and know the tricks. The AOD requires a few tools (I made them) to work with a dial indicator and to align things up. The servo pistons were tough with this particular case.

Finally, the shifting problem after all of this may be due to particles in your valve body causing things to act up. It really needs to be rebuilt ot replaced at this time. I just got one from Lentech (though not cheap ... but now I can hold 2nd gear ;-)))) Anyway, I would also recommend a new tv pressure valve (sonnax) and a new revised ramp pressure valve (sonnax) with a Transgo shift kit if you do not want to spring for a Lentech valve body. this worked great for me and the trans shifted hard, and really launched the car between the 1-2 shift. The valve body is the brains and they are critical to operation period!!! Any dirt or not torqueing it in properly can impact how things work or even if they will work properly. Lastly, put a cooler on it to keep the temps down.

Hope all of this helps you! Heck, you made me write a book here like you did! ;-)))

OK, couple questions, if it was hard to follow above:

1st: Where can I get the tool that is needed to properly attach to throttle so I can check TV pressure properly?
2nd: Where can I get the Sonnax TV valve you are referring to?


OK, asking that, let me say this..after 2nd blow up of pump, I went through trans, tore it down all the way, and rebuilt it, replacing parts that were trashed, and yes, very easy to rebuild. In fact, easier to rebuild than the manual trannies I specialize in. Valve body, I reused the "gaskets"...do you think I should have used new ones? They only had a total of 2-3 minutes run time on them (including the 200 yards of driving), so I felt they were OK to reuse.
Do you think it's possible, by reusing the valve body gasket, I am losing pressure/fluid there? I KNOW it's torqued properly, as I checked it with 2 different TQ Wrenches.


Again, thank you very much for your help on this!!!


EDIT: I have a pressure gauge attached to the TV port on trans, I jsut dont have the "tool" or whatever it is that is needed to attach to the throttle ort wherever it goes

 

[Gen414]

Same question still stands from my most recent post...thanks guys

 

[Gen414]

UPDATE:

OK guys, have new info, that maybe sheds light on problem..not sure, and is why Im asking.

OK, checked fluid, was little over full, so, trying to rack my brain, and figured nothing to lose, decided to take some out. No, I didnt REALLY think it would help, but at this point, figured couldnt hurt.

So, went to drive and same thing, of course, HOWEVER found something interesting. OK, all this time, I had been "taking it easy" with the throttle, ya know, taking off from dead stop with little throttle input. Well, after tranny shifted from 1st to 2nd immediately, YET AGAIN, I got ticked off/frustrated, and turned car around, and went to shop, and I pulled inner cable on TV cable towards front of car a GOOD SOLID 1", tightened up nut, and went to go drive it, and SAME CRAP!! IMMEDIATE 1st to 2nd gear shift under light throttle. So, NOW IM TICKED OFF/FRUSTRATED, turn car around, and from dead stop, I got pretty aggressive with throttle, and GUESS WHAT??? IT SHIFTED JUST FINE!!

It held 1st gear, slammed 2nd, stayed in throttle, held 2nd gear, and shifted nice and firm into 3rd, then OD. All, nice, clean firm crisp shifts. No slippage whaso ever.

So, now Im like WTF!?!?!?! So, from dead stop, and use light throttle again, and yep, IMMEDIATE shift from 1st to 2nd. So, stop again, and take off, using aggressive throttle (but not crazy..figure about 1/3-1/2 throttle) and it held 1st gear jsut fine, and shifted into 2nd @ 3500RPM, and stayed in throttle, and same thing, for 3rd, then shifted into OD, again just fine.

So, IF I HAVE SOMEWHAT AGGRESSIVE THROTTLE INPUT IT SHIFTS PERFECT, but soon as I use light throttle, it shifts into 2nd gear from 1st, immediately when taking off from dead stop.
So, guys, does that help any at all????

 

[FoMoCo17]

Okay, lets see if I get all of your questions answered here.

You got a gauge apparently. The one I got from Harbor Freight I believe was an oil pressure checking gauge with 4-6 feet of line so its nice. Anyway, as I stated in my post, you need a gauge block (not related to the gauge just mentioned. It is inserted onto the cable itself not the outer sheath. Up by the throttle valve, you pull out on the cable mimicking what happens when you step on the gas but leaving the throttle body alone. When you pull out on the cable, you insert a gauge block (either you buy one or make one) I explained this above. Once you know the size, you can mic a drill and cut the end of the drill with a hacksaw or cutoff wheel perpendicular to the drill and insert it on the cable taking up any slack in the cable while the throttle body remains closed. It sounds like you do not have the factory setup though. Anyway, whatever setup you have, you want to have 3-5 psi with the throttle body closed and idling with no gauge block installed. And, you want to have 25-35 for full acceleration to hold the clutches and bands with a gauge block installed. The thickness of the gauge block is around (0.4") I can find out if necessary but it is usually listed in any service manual and places like Transgo certainly can give you the thickness. I do not know what type of setup/cable you have. If you can pull the end of the cable out to insert a gauge while the throttle body remains closed, then this is where you would insert the gauge. Possibly you can get a factory TV cable setup or ask the manufacturer how to adjust yours with the gauge block as Ford suggests. I just do not know what your setup looks like or functions.

The TV Cable adjustment does control shift timing so this could be your problem. But, I must CAUTION you. Get the pressures right before driving it and stepping on it or you may be rebuilding it again. This is one crucial step and the integrity of this cable must always be maintained and checked because failure can occur quickly.

Re-using the old valve body gasket is fine as long as there were NO tears or adhesion to other surfaces causing it to peel away from itself. Actually its preferred because its already compressed and would hold the 12 in-lbs torque setting better. So, if it lifted off real easy, you are good to go on that.

The AOD is okay to rebuild if everything is checked and the dimensions/clearances given are maintained ... if you've done manuals, then following the books you should be okay.

The pump bearing is not staked by most ... so your rebuilder just pressed it in ... it could have spun .... did you lubricate the torque convertor hub with grease or tranny fluid when the convertor was installed. I learned this staking trick from a rebuilder possibly he had a few spin at times and does it as a precaution like I do .... it is not mandatory. I have installed them w/o staking them also. But, it was apparent from your post, that it had spun an seized up ... greasing the hub should prevent this.

Hope I answered all of your questions. I am not an expert but I have many years automotive experience and am a Mechanical Engineer. Thus, I do try to learn everything I can before doing a job and learning the secrets and easy way of doing things and doing them right.

Oh, the Sonnax Pressure Valve and TV Plug can be obtained from P.A.T.C (search google w/AOD & PATC). There down in Alabama and they have them on their website but other places that do tranny work should be able to get Sonnax valves, etc..

Any other questions, please let me know or do what you did so that I received an email. I will try to check back in on this post.

Finally, you gotta get that TV Cable adjusted properly before you do anything including driving it again!

 

[FoMoCo17]

Went through your post again. The button that you depress on the TV Pressure Cable is on a stock cable setup. You may not have such a setup on your PA cable but they can tell you how it is adjusted.

Again, check my posts, you can make a gauge block easily with a drill!!! I just do not know the size at this moment since i am out on a WiFi connection. If I remember, I shall try to mic my drill that I use and find the exact dimension for you over the weekend. All it is is a determined thickness that simulates throttle opening a specific amount (around 0.4") ... then with the block installed on the actual cable, the pressure is set and locked to mimmick what it would be under that throttle opening condition of approx. 0.4". Ford has determined that if it is checked here on its pressure slope, then it should be okay everywhere else when opening the throttle any amount. And the final check is to see that you have 3-5 psi without the gauge block installed at idle. Once this is done, opening the throttle any amount will always have the correct pressure because it was set and checked partially in its operating range of motion. Setting on the higher side is preferred to the lower side. Do not confuse the cable with its outer sheath. It is the ACTUAL inner cable that is adjusted in relation to the outer sheath/housing that is mounted rigidly in its supports. Hope this helps!

 

[Gen414]

Okay, lets see if I get all of your questions answered here.

You got a gauge apparently. The one I got from Harbor Freight I believe was an oil pressure checking gauge with 4-6 feet of line so its nice. Anyway, as I stated in my post, you need a gauge block (not related to the gauge just mentioned. It is inserted onto the cable itself not the outer sheath. Up by the throttle valve, you pull out on the cable mimicking what happens when you step on the gas but leaving the throttle body alone. When you pull out on the cable, you insert a gauge block (either you buy one or make one) I explained this above. Once you know the size, you can mic a drill and cut the end of the drill with a hacksaw or cutoff wheel perpendicular to the drill and insert it on the cable taking up any slack in the cable while the throttle body remains closed. It sounds like you do not have the factory setup though. Anyway, whatever setup you have, you want to have 3-5 psi with the throttle body closed and idling with no gauge block installed. And, you want to have 25-35 for full acceleration to hold the clutches and bands with a gauge block installed. The thickness of the gauge block is around (0.4") I can find out if necessary but it is usually listed in any service manual and places like Transgo certainly can give you the thickness. I do not know what type of setup/cable you have. If you can pull the end of the cable out to insert a gauge while the throttle body remains closed, then this is where you would insert the gauge. Possibly you can get a factory TV cable setup or ask the manufacturer how to adjust yours with the gauge block as Ford suggests. I just do not know what your setup looks like or functions.

The TV Cable adjustment does control shift timing so this could be your problem. But, I must CAUTION you. Get the pressures right before driving it and stepping on it or you may be rebuilding it again. This is one crucial step and the integrity of this cable must always be maintained and checked because failure can occur quickly.

Re-using the old valve body gasket is fine as long as there were NO tears or adhesion to other surfaces causing it to peel away from itself. Actually its preferred because its already compressed and would hold the 12 in-lbs torque setting better. So, if it lifted off real easy, you are good to go on that.

The AOD is okay to rebuild if everything is checked and the dimensions/clearances given are maintained ... if you've done manuals, then following the books you should be okay.

The pump bearing is not staked by most ... so your rebuilder just pressed it in ... it could have spun .... did you lubricate the torque convertor hub with grease or tranny fluid when the convertor was installed. I learned this staking trick from a rebuilder possibly he had a few spin at times and does it as a precaution like I do .... it is not mandatory. I have installed them w/o staking them also. But, it was apparent from your post, that it had spun an seized up ... greasing the hub should prevent this.

Hope I answered all of your questions. I am not an expert but I have many years automotive experience and am a Mechanical Engineer. Thus, I do try to learn everything I can before doing a job and learning the secrets and easy way of doing things and doing them right.

Oh, the Sonnax Pressure Valve and TV Plug can be obtained from P.A.T.C (search google w/AOD & PATC). There down in Alabama and they have them on their website but other places that do tranny work should be able to get Sonnax valves, etc..

Any other questions, please let me know or do what you did so that I received an email. I will try to check back in on this post.

Finally, you gotta get that TV Cable adjusted properly before you do anything including driving it again!

OK, VB gasket...no, no tears, and it peeled off very easily, and is why I felt comfortable reusing it..just wanted to make sure that the VB gasket wasnt some "one and done" type of thing. OK, so can pretty much eliminate that.

Yes, I have just a mechanical gauge with some braided line, and goes up to 100 PSI, and I have the line and that gauge tapped into the TV port.
My readings are basically zero at idle, in park.

Im still confused on this other gauge block you are referring to. I jsut cant picture it in my head. Sorry about that.
But what Ive done is, with my mechanical gauge hooked up to TV port in trans, with motor running, trans in Park, Ive pulled the inner TV cable towards front of car, but left motor at idle, with NO movement of throttle body, and pressure will pretty much stay at 0 (zero) PSI, until Ive given that cable a pretty good tug, and about the time I get to where the cable is pulled all the way out, and I cant go any further with it, my gauge is reading @ 25PSI.

The cable we have, IS an aftermarket unit, bought from Performance Automatic. When I called them the other day, they refered to it as teh Lokar TV cable. However, with the instructions that were included with cable, or on the cable itself, I see NO indications, or names, saying it is the Lokar unit. (yes, I know who Lokar is, and in fact, the transfluid dipstick on the car is a Lokar unit).
They told me with that cable, a "tool" should have been provided/included with it, so I can check the readings, like you are describing above. After I got off phone with them, I tore place apart, looking for the "tool" to no avail. So, I guess Im gonna call them tomorrow, and see if they can send me another one. Again, Im just having a hard time visualizing this "tool". But, this TV cable, whatever brand it is, IS, a very nicely made, and vey beefy/strong. Ive hooked up many stock TV cables, and this cable is very stout.
I followed directions to a "T" when I installed this cable, and I NEVER read directions, but I did on this, since I was in unchartered waters, and I KNOW how crucial the TV cable setup is on the AOD (and 700R4).


To answer your other question, yes, I lubed up converter snout (again, not my 1st rodeo). I took some ATF, and poured some around the input shaft, and made sure I got some on the seal, and then I take a very small amount of grease, and I jsut smear it on the converter snout, jus tenough to make sure its not dry on start up. And, of course, I added a number of quarts (thinking off hand was 4 quarts, but not sure right now)of tranny fluid inside converter before I install it on input shaft.
Im jsut thinking that the snout on converter was just buggered up enough, or bushing wasnt installed in pump all the way/correctly.

But, either way, were past that now, trans is back together, and trying to figure out this crazy shifting.


OK, I was under teh impression that the TV pressure DOES affect shift timing? Ive read numerous times now, that the more the pressure, the longer the delay in the shift. In fact, the instruction that were included with my TV cable, specifially said, that if I wanted a firmer/later shift, to increase pressure by adjusting the cable (pulling inner cable towards front of car).


So, if that is not true (delayed shifts/increased pressure), then what DOES affect shift timing??? Because whatever THAT is, THAT is my problem. Reason I say that is, because IF increased pressure doesnt affect shift timing, and ONLY affects shift firmess, then my TV pressure is OK, because as I mentioned above, under more aggressive throttle, it shifts perfect...nice and firm, and once in that particular gear, there is NO slippage.

The ONLY problem Im having right now, is under light throttle, the early shift from 1st to 2nd. Thats it. No other problems. Under more agressive driving, it shifts just fine, and drives perfect.

I thank you very much for all of your help/insight/info. Thank you!

 

[FoMoCo17]

Hey .... I noticed the other night that my trans go pretty quickly into 2nd and drive at low throttle pressure so you may be alright. The more I depress the throttle, the more longer it takes to shift. From what I understand, the TV Pressure makes the shifts harder and delays them slightly the higher the pressure. But, remember, it is nothing real significant. Mostly, the governor in combination with the TV pressure controls the shifts. I still think your problem is in the pressure adjustment. And from what you described, you are pulling out on the cable and are getting the 25 psi at some point. The amount that you pulled out simulates the "block gauge" installed. However the gauge is only about "0.4 inches in thickness" but you may have pulled out the cable slack to say 1 inch meaning you are 0.6 inches off of adjustment. If the cable was tightened up by 0.6 inches, then when the gauge is installed, you would have 25 psi (minimum ... I'd go to 30 minimum personally). So, the question is how far did you pull out on the cable in relation to the actual thickness of an inserted gauge block. I am sorry that i did not get the thickness for you yet been busy with problems on my motor that i have to post about. I'll try to remember. But like I said before, a drill with a slot cut in it can be slipped over the cable to simulate pulling it by hand which you did ... and it was the inner metal cable that you were able to pull on .... good. That is what the "gauge block" gets installed on and then the pressure is checked with the ineer cable pulled out that exact distance specified by the thickness of the "gauge block". Hopefully, the manufacturer will supply you with what you need, then it shall be clear and easy to you! ;-) Then, remove the gauge block after adjusting the pressure to 25- 35 psi check to make sure your above zero psi but below 5 psi ... then you should be good to go ... at least to test drive it again!

But, like i said earlier, these transmissions go into higher gears quickly .... I think it was designed this way to boost mileage to make standards. It is only when you really florr it, does it hold the gears ... and then you still get the short shift from 2nd to drive which the Lentech valve body helps to solve because you can manually hold it in any gear. But, even in drive, it goes through the gears pretty quickly.

Hope this helps .... wish I got that drill size for you .... I'll try but I got 10 things going at once here!!!

 

[FoMoCo17]

Here, this should help ... my memory was pretty good on the gauge thickness. It is explained for carbed/CFI and then SEFI. The SEFI second method explained is not as accurate from my perspective but can certainly be used. Even though my car is SEFI, I use the gauge block method described for carbed/CFI setups since it is more accurate ... your just simulating throttle opening with the gauge block on a SEFI at a specified amount of throttle opening. Once it is within that range, it will be fine everywhere else in the throttle opening pressure-wise! Also, as you can see at this site, they recommend a mid 30's pressure to hold them clutches and bands during performance use. Here's the link ... it should help a lot!

Ford Automatic Overdrive Transmission Installation - TV Cable Adjustment - Mustang Monthly Magazine

 

[FoMoCo17]

Also, here is another way of doing it based on your circumstances:

TV Linkage Adjustment & Retrofit Page - Baumann Electronic Controls, LLC

 

[Gen414]

Again, many thanks for all the help, info, links, etc...been a huge help in trying to diagnose the problem.

Im thinking that we are going to try replacing TV valve and revised ramp pressure valve, and try the shift kit as you mentioned in your 1st post. I feel at this time, it is without any doubt, inside the valve body. So, gonna order those parts up, wait for them to come in, then yank VB and go through it. While we are waiting for parts, Im taking the car over to a local trans shop to get a 2nd opinion and see what they think about it.
Even though Im not one to normaly do something like this, I figure since Im not an automatic expert, it wouldnt hurt to see what these guys think. Even though Im very confident in what is causing the problem now, I figure once I remove this VB and drain trans fluid yet again, ITS GONNA BE THE LAST TIME I DO IT! I might even take VB over to the trans shop, and see if they will go through it themselves, let me watch 'em, because I want to see with my own eyes, and hopefully, we can find the "AH HA, HERE IS YOUR PROBLEM".

OK, you mentioned above that your car shifts very soon as well under light acceleration from 1st to 2nd. Well, I will agree with you, that teh AOD's that I have driven over the years (in fact, not but 6-8 months ago, bought a '91 Grand Marquis to fix up and sale, and ended up driving for a month or so, and that AOD shifted nothing like what is going on here), do usually shift very soft/soon, I can say with 100% certainty, that THIS aod IS shifting entirely to soon.
When I say it's an IMMEDIATE shift, I mean it. Literally, as SOON as the car begins to move, it shifts into 2nd gear. If im doing 2-3 MPH, I would be surprised. Put it this way, the speedo DOESNT move/register and it shifts into 2nd gear. Basically, it might as well not even have 1st gear it shifts so soon.


TV pressure...I've gone over the link's you provided, as well as talked with guys that we bought cable from, and I've gone over the directions they supplied with TV cable, and I have no doubt, it was installed correctly, and after you confirming that by pullin on inner cable will increase pressure as I was led to believe, Im doing everything right. So, basically, we have a problem, and it HAS to be inside the VB. The VB is what controls shift patterns, on the when and the how, with assistance from TV cable, So, since cable is new and in perfect working condition, and installed correctly, that leaves VB (and parts associated with it).

So, that is our next step, and will update you as soon as I know something. Thanks a million times over, you have been a huge help!

 

[FoMoCo17]

Well, when you rebuilt it, did you take the governor assembly apart and clean it? That could definitely be a problem. Its on the tailshaft of the trans. I'd certainly check that and its screen!!!

As far as pressures, did you get them adjusted yet to what was described? Please do this before anything else! Then see what happens.

I would not change any valves at this point ... wait until it works properly or you shall be inducing another unknown in my opinion. Yes, if a qualified does it, I'm sure he'd do it right. However, I've always believed in getting the stock configuration in good working order before modifying anything ... period. The valve body can be pulled out at a later date and these two valves installed including the shift kit. Shift kits in themselves can induce problems all by them selves with valves hanging up or valve body not being torqued to the exact specs and the proper sequence (inside to outside at around 12 in-lbs. of torque).

I know it may cost more or be more work, but I do not want ot see you end up with the same problem or more problems. Could you possibly get your hands on a working used valve body?

 

[Gen414]

Well, when you rebuilt it, did you take the governor assembly apart and clean it? That could definitely be a problem. Its on the tailshaft of the trans. I'd certainly check that and its screen!!!

As far as pressures, did you get them adjusted yet to what was described? Please do this before anything else! Then see what happens.

I would not change any valves at this point ... wait until it works properly or you shall be inducing another unknown in my opinion. Yes, if a qualified does it, I'm sure he'd do it right. However, I've always believed in getting the stock configuration in good working order before modifying anything ... period. The valve body can be pulled out at a later date and these two valves installed including the shift kit. Shift kits in themselves can induce problems all by them selves with valves hanging up or valve body not being torqued to the exact specs and the proper sequence (inside to outside at around 12 in-lbs. of torque).

I know it may cost more or be more work, but I do not want ot see you end up with the same problem or more problems. Could you possibly get your hands on a working used valve body?

Governor, yes I did. In fact, when I rebuilt it, cleaned it, made sure was put back in the correct direction. So, when trans was put back together, and went to go drive, and wouldnt shift out of 1st gear (I left this part out in my above posts), I was told that the only thing it can be is incorrect TV pressure, or the Govenor as intalled backwards/clogged. So, since tailshaft is easily removed with trans in car, and I didnt have to drain all teh fluid, I was HOPING that I had installed Govenor backwards. So, I pulled tailshaft housing, and even removed Govenor yet again, to inspect/clean and re-install to make sure.
So, yes, it was and is clean (twice in zero miles) and installed correctly.

OK, TV pressures. he only way I know how to increase pressure, is by the TV cable, correct? if so, I cant get any more then what I have right now. That's the thing. No matter how much I pull inner cable out (towards front of car), pressure isnt affected, until literally cable is all the way pulled forward.

So, is there another way to up teh pressure, that Im not aware of? Or? And, that is why I also wanted to get a 2nd opinion. I figure trans shop, knowing the issues, would check TV pressure.
BUt, if there is a way to adjust TV pressure, aside from the way Im doing it (pulling inner cable out), then by all means, SHARE!!! LOL!! I was under impression that was it. The cable did it, but pulling on the lever on side of trans, which obviously pulls on TV valve inside VB. BUt, again, if there is another way, Im all ears!

I do agree that, just replacing parts is not the answer. But I feel it HAS to be inside valvebody, and by going through it (and more then likely, gonna have trans shop go through it with me, so I can see/learn) and upgrading these parts shouldnt add to the confusion.
No, no used VB sitting around.
Car is at trans shop, we are waiting on answer to see what they say it is.

But, one more time, if there is another way to be able to adjust TV pressure, I am all ears.....

Thanks again