New AOD, having problems shifting, TV pressure issue..

[FoMoCo17]

I do not know how far you are pulling out on the inner cable per say whether its a foot ())) ) or say a half of an inch. If it is say half an inch, it is not adjusted properly. Oh, there is no other way of adjusting it per se which is more accurate. Like in the post, Ford set them very easily by just taking the slack out of them so that when you stepped on the gas, the cable immediately moved and moved the lever on the side of the transmission. If that is a direct connection and when one moves, the other moves, then you are close. If however, you pull out on the cable and the lever of the transmission is not moving, then your cable IS NOT adjusted properly and we are back to zero. Hey, this is not rocket science here. When you open the throttle a hair, check to see if the lever on the side of the transmission is beginninng to move. If not, then tighten up the cable. Once this point is established, a gauge of 0.4 can be inserted on the inner cable as it is pulled out a bit and the pressure can be adjusted up or down from that point with the adjustment mechanism near the throttle body or carburetor.

Well, at least we know the governor is correct. If a qualified mechanic is going to go through the valvebody, then you may be alright in installing those extra valves. It is possible that the TV pressure valve may improve this situation because PATC told me that they are bad on just about every AOD. And, I'm sure that many rebuilders just put the old ones back in not realizing that they apparently have leakage problems from what I've been told. Personally, I'd do one valve at a time clean the passage with a little bit of spray cleaner, blow it out, pour some trans fluid in it, and install the valves. This way, you can clean it and note any debris and not mess up the order. only thoroughly experienced rebuilders know where all of the valves and springs go. And remember "cleaniness is next to Godliness" in this job. Lay things out as you do them, and do one thing at a time. And, be sure to follow all torques exactly and in the proper order.

Personally, if you do not have that cable adjusted properly or do not know how to adjust it, that is your immediate problem because it is not going to go away whether you rebuild the valve body or not. Possibly the valvebody helps then you take the car out cuz it drives but the pressure is off and you burn up your clutches cuz it was never adjusted properly. you stated you were going to contact PA or someone else about this cable and they said it was supposed to come with a gauge .... what happened. Did they send one? Did they tell you how to adjust the actual cable to take out slack? Oh, BTW, is this a carbed setup or FI? You may have already told me but I couldn't find it in this long thread. Dude, I wish you were like a block away, it would have been easier for me to come help you and get you out on the street!!!

 

[Gen414]

Yes, I know how the cable should work, and as you said, not rocket science. Basically, cable is attached to throttle, which is attached to the arm/lever on side of tranny, and when throttle is opened, it moves the lever/arm on side of tranny, increasing pressure.
yes, on our setup, as soon as that throttle is moved, the arm on side of tranny moves. In fighting this, I have actually put PRELOAD on that arm in hopes of helping/solving my problem. Meaning, I pulled the inner cable until the arm on tranny was moving forward, tightned cable up. That way, in my mind and how I see it working, I would have "to the extreme" pressure, and if it held a gear to long, or shifted to hard, then so be it, I would "back off" the preload from there.

HOWEVER, I can move that arm on side of tranny to say the halfway open point (it's haflway between closed and open), AND LEAVE ADJUSTMENT JUST LIKE THAT, and tranny STILL DO THE EXACT SAME THING IT IS DOING RIGHT NOW. In other words, I set it up to where, AT IDLE, the arm is halfway opened, and tranny behave NO differently then setting it up with arm closed and cable have zero slack and some tension (other words, set up "properly").

Thats the thing, and what Ive been saying, not only am I moving the inner cable, I am moving the arm as well, and that is what has me stumped. Again, I KNOW the cable is setup right. No "ifs" "buts" "ands" about it, IT IS SETUP RIGHT. But NOTHING effects way tranny shifts.
No matter how much I move that arm, it performs the same.


So, to me, that means (from what I understand from your post above) the TV valve is bleeding/leaking off pressure, and is why I wanted to do the Sonax parts.

Still waiting on word from tranny shop and see what they say, so we'll see where it goes from here.

And yes, cleanliness is next to godliness...I rebuild manual trannies every day, as well as motors, and Ive taken teh same approach with this auto as I do any other one of my builds.

Thanks again

 

[Gen414]

But, what has been driving me crazy is the "throttle input" and when I found that out. What Im saying is, last week when I found out that if I used more throttle, it would hold second gear longer. Well, more throttle means more "TV arm movement" and you would think if I set preload INTO the arm (which is what I did before AND after I found out about the more throttle changing shift pattern), that it would be the same as using more throttle input.

In other words, I felt like I was "tricking" the transmission into believing it was recieving more throttle by preloading/moving the TV arm forward. BUT, for tranny to shift any different you HAVE to use more throttle, which obviously is more engine RPM. So, maybe TV valve is bleeding off pressure under lighter ENGINE RPM (not as much fluid volume???) but when ENGINE RPM increases, ups fluid volume, and doesnt leak/bleed by then, maybe??????
I mean, that is what Im guessing. I feel that is a good possibilty, and once again, inside the VB. Guessing COULD be the actual pump itself, but they sent me a rebuilt pump, so the rings and bushings on the pump are all new.

 

[FoMoCo17]

When the lever on the side of the transmission was half back in its travel, did you get a TV Pressure reading or was it still zero or near zero? If it was low, I would also do a line pressure test on the transmission to determine if you have the correct pressures coming from the pump. You may need a higher pressure gauge because I believe the line pressure can be between 200 - 300 psi (not sure never had to read it on mine). If you have good line pressure, then ifrom what your telling me, its time to get into that valve body. I say check the line pressure since you did have problems with the pump and are now experiencing a TV Pressure problem. If the line pressure is way off, then you could have a pump problem possibly in conjunction with a VB problem. Hope this helps! Sounds like you have the cable correct or know where it should be to get a specific reading and the slack is taken out of it.

 

[Gen414]

Yes, with lever/arm moved halfway then pressure is still basically zero. I have to move it almost ALL THE WAY to teh front to get pressure to rise, and then it tops out @ 25PSI, again, at idle, in Park.

That's was what Ive been saying (or meaning to say), I eliminated the cable all together (few posts above mentioned that), and lifted the car up in the air with car running, and with gauge installed in TV port, I manually grabbed lever, and moved it forward to insinuate throttle input, and gauge wouldnt move, unless I moved it all the way forward. it would hang around zero (0), then once I got almost all the way forward, gauge would creep up, some, then once I basically got it all the way, it jumped up to 25PSI. But that was it.

Now, I DID do a main line pressure, and you are right, it is defintely more then 100PSI. At idle, it would be @ 50-60, then at touch of throttle, it would peg the 100SPI gauge. So, hard to say how much pressure it was actually putting out with throttle input.

I need to talk to trans shop...they called my Brother, and told him its an "internal" problem, and tranny needs to be opened up. Not sure if they took line readings, and came up with pump, or what. I'll update soon as I know something..

 

[FoMoCo17]

Well, that description would have helped out a lot a while back ... now i understand everything. I'd personally ask them to pressure check it and see if the pressures are where they are supposed to be other than the TV Pressure. If the main line pressure is okay, then its probably in the valvebody. If the main line pressure is off significantly, there are other problems in the trans somwhere causing the pressure drop which is impacting everything else. Guess I'd hope for the main line pressure being good and then possibly discussing with them just rebuilding the valvebody if they feel it would solve the problem rather than pulling the trans and going through it if it is just in the valve body. Get a good description from them and post it for us.

 

[Gen414]

OK, here is the scoop. We got 1 opinion from 1st shop, and they wanted to rebuild whole transmission. Would be the only way they would touch it. Basically, they told us they were stumped, that what they are able to diagnose with tranny still in car, it SHOULDNT be doing what it is doing with thier diagnosis, and without looking inside it, they are stumped.
So, trans shop #2 basically says the exact same thing (took to them yesterday), that trans should NOT be doing what it is doing with the diagnosis they have. I basically took that as, there is not some "AH HA! THIS is what is causing your problem" scenario, and they are trying to cover thier ass, so they want to go in tranny, and check it out further. Which, I understand completely.

THIS is where my Brother loses it, and says, "NOPE! Im not paying another freakin dime towards this transmission. Tranny has been **** from the get go, been one thing after another. There is SUPPOSED to be a 1 year warranty on this transmission, and original trans shop has denied ANY wrong doing from day 1. TOUGH ****! If they cant send me a brand new tranny, or pay a trans shop here locally to rebuild it, Im disputing the credit card charge. I paid good money for a trans, 1 year warranty, and it hasnt been driven ONE (1) total mile in 9 months time, and they need to step up and do something about this!"

Which I can understand his frustration, and he is right. This shop has denied any wrong doing from day 1, even BEFORE there were problems with transmission. (very long story, and no need for it here) We would have sent transmission back to them originally, but they wanted us topay for shipping to and from (total would have been @ $500+ to ship back and forth) We argued that they should AT LEAST pay for shipping 1 way, and really, shold handle shipping round trip.
I mean, think about it:
Pay for trans, that is rebuilt, and supposed to be in working condition, 1 year warranty. We pay for shipping, get trans, install it, and doesnt work from word go. So, my Brother never really got what he paid for in the beginning. A transmission in working order.
Which has lead us here to this point, a transmision that STILL hasnt worked.


So, Brother calls shop, tells them situation, and they tell him if he wants to pay for shipping, they will fix it.
Well, #1, Brother says he is NOT paying for shipping. Shouldnt have to. #2 IF he pays for shipping, how does he know that they are not just gonna turn around and send another bunk transmission, when they DIDNT send a working trans 1st time???
My brother see's that as to much risk, and says that they either need to pay for shipping, or pay local trans shop to rebuild, then local trans shop will off THIER warranty, and we no longer have to deal with Florida transshop. No longer have to hear from us.
They say no to both. So, Brother called Amex, and is fighthing the charges. Says he is not paying for this transmission. He has gone above and beyond what he should have had to do for a simple transmisson, and he has drawn the line.

After he called Amex, he called me and told me to locate a Tremec, he is putting a manual tranny in it, something he should have done in the 1st place, like I told him to (at time, he was trying to take cheaper way out, and sticking with auto, even though I told him we needed to do a manual tranny conversion)

So, that is where we are at...Mustang back at my shop, and auto is getting yanked ONE LAST TIME, and a TKO600 is going in it's place.

So, I guess we will NEVER know what was REALLY wrong with AOD (I told my Brother while we are waiting on TKO, that I wanted to yank valve body again while tranny was still in car, and he flatly refused to say yes. Said even if I DID fix it, he doesnt want to know about it. Mind made up, and that is that.
However, since he's not at my shop all that much, between me and you, Im doing it. Im gonna yank valve body one last time and see if I can find anything....

This thread is FAR from over...update's coming later on....

 

[FoMoCo17]

Well, I would get some exact main line pressure numbers. If they are okay, then the problem sounds like it is definitely in the valvebody. It could be dirt, metal, or a stuck/bad valve that is hanging up. At that point, I would go through the valvebody with a fine tooth comb and rebuild it in a methodical manner.

 

[Gen414]

OK,Mustang back at shop. Im gonna try and swing by one of the trans shop on Thursday (got 2 customers cars in right now, needing to finish up by tomorrow) and gonna see if I can get main line pressure. Also gonna see if I can talk to the actual tech that looked at it, and like you said, try and get a better explanation of things.
Not that it matters much at this point, other then I want to know what is going on with it. But, APPEARS Florida trans shop is not disputing charges, and simply gonna pick up tranny.
But still I want to know what the problem was.

So, I mreading my ATSG repair manual on the AOD, and TV cable and blah blah blah, and I came across this:

"DO NOT DRIVE VEHICLE WITH TV CABLE DISCONNECTED AT THROTTLE BODY. IF YOU HAVE TO DRIVE IT< DISCONNECT LINE AT TRANS LEVER AND YOU WILL HAVE FULL PRESSURE"


Uh, why is THAT!?!?! If the line is disconnected at the trans lever, why does it default full pressure? Also went onto say that with cable disconnected at trans lever, that it will cause a delay/hard shift. Which, Im not udnerstanding that at all.

From how I see it, the lever, sits back (and should be ZERO pressure) and with cable hooked up, brings lever forward, increasing pressure, right? So, if cable is DISCONNECTED at tranny, then how does it default to FULL PRESSURE?

I can tell you this, IM TRYING THAT!!! Like i asid above, have some customers cars Im working on, but hopefully by Thursday, I can take another look at it. So, gonna try that (disconnect cable at trans lever) drive it, and see what happens. If nothig changes, Im gonna yank pan and valvebody one more time, and REALLY take a look at VB, and probaly take it to trans shop, and see if I can hang out while they go through VB. I know i said this awhile back, but things kind of got side tracked with Brother getting frustrated and all of that.
Again, I just want to know what the heck happened, and really, I want YOU to find out as well!!!

But, either way, a manual tranny is going in, so never really gonna find out if she would have held up to the motor.

Anyways, update coming later on....thaks

 

[FoMoCo17]

I'm not sure about this defaulting to full pressure thing that you have found .... it doesn't seem right to me either. I'd literally have to crawl under the transmission to check it for sure.

As far as this trans, was it from PA or someplace else? Wasn't sure if you mentioned it. I feel your pain on this one for sure! Just beware that credit card companies usually require that the merchandise be returned. In this case, to spend $500 and then get a transmission from somewhere else is ridiculous ... they SHOULD stand behind you ... but these days who knows cuz they are greedy like the parts people. You should not be penalized cuz it didn't work from the begining. Either way, the public should know their name so that others are not duped like this! Who's to say that they don't split the shipping with the carrier on all of these returns. A lot of these companies have special rates etc. I shipped fenders from the West Coast to the East Coast for less than that!!!! Tell the credit card company that it was not as advertised and didn't work from the beginning and let them know they are supposed to stand behind the customer not the merchant. Certainly, you should have a transmission that works! And remember, the fine print states that the part must be returned to get full credit!!!! Get full credit and return it by wagon train that takes 90 days if you have to for $2. Just return it, and I think you shall be covered!!! Call the owner of the trans place and give him one more chance if you haven't spoken to him already. Otherwise return it the cheapest way possible and get your money back or as much as you can. Don't let the credit card compnay take advantage of you on top of them ... to protect yourself, get it back to them or possibly lose all of your money. Once its shipped back, you DID ALL THAT ANYONE COULD EXPECT AS A CUSTOMER! If you do not then get your money back, then SUE the comapny and drag the credit card company inot court also and let them point the fingers at one another and run up each's lawyer fees! ;-) Represent yourself and show you followed the credit card agreement and returned the part! Your good to go!

I AM NOT A LAWYER NOR REPRESENT ONE ON TV JUST MY OPINION OF WHAT I WOULD DO .... GOING THROUGH ONE OF THESE RIGHT NOW!!! But, i shall have the last WORD!!! PROMISE!

 

[Gen414]

Back from the dead. OK...

First, no..trans NOT from PA. I have installed a few C-4's in customers cars that PA did, and I actually had PA do a Powerglide for me a number of years ago (the only time I actually had a auto built for my own personal car...when I was running 9.70's with a Doug Nash 5 speed, was breaking lots of "stock" parts..stock driveshaft's, U-joints, even twisted 8.8 center section upwards about 90*. Guessing side stepping clutch at 7500 RPM with giggle gas flowing will do that. But hey, I was getting it to 60' like a MF'r! Little 306 needs RPM, and i was giving it to it Had ladder bars on the car, but didnt weld tubes to center section, and THAT was the loudest explosion Ive felt in a car yet! When that damn center section rotated upwards, it brought driveshaft/pinion flange/Ujoint with it, dab smack into the floorboard and INTO the interior of the car....yeah, makes for loud "bang"

ANYWAYS, by then, I had broken and gone through T-5's (obviously), Tremecs, and onto the Doug Nash. Will say Tremec held up better than the Doug Nash. Only had problems with 3rd gears on the Tremecs. Doug Nash, well, broke mainshaft, then broke mainshaft again AND the case, and was emptying pocket book too quick. Had a Fun Ford event coming up, no trans. A friend had a C4, plopped it in, and for most part, car ran same ET as manual tranny, but wasnt breaking parts, and was more consistent. Mind you, this was in the early to mid 1990's when all of that was happening
Ended up with a powerglide built by PA.


OK, that was off topic. Here is the latest:

Brother disputed charges, trans shop didnt fight it. In fact, they let us keep the transmission. Im only ASSUMING that they didnt want to pay for shipping back to thier shop is why they never asked for trans back.

My Brother gave me go ahead, and I got a TKO, Spec Stage 2+, SFI Billet Steel Fly, adj clutch cable (firewall adjuster), aluminum quadrant, etc...Got parts in awhile back, just been busy at customers cars. Im installing TKO today.

AOD...well, the curiosity got better of me, and I went ahead and called a trans shop in local area that has done quite a few performance trannies for me/customers/friends in the past, and took AOD over to them. They went through it, and basically, valvebody was junk. Either was junk from get go, or got damaged when pump went out, or was junk from get go, and only made worse from when pump went out and metal was pushed through system. Hard to say WHEN it became junk, but it is. So, I went ahead and put a new valvebody on it (had them do it) and run it on thier trans dyno to make sure everything else checked out, and it did. So, now have an AOD that works, with no car to put it in. However, if trans shop in Florida calls and wants it, Im pulling my new valvebody back off, LOL! But, coming up on 2 months now, Im not seeing it (them calling). I'll give them a couple more months, before I call trans "mine" though.

Well, thanks for ALL your help on this...and even though we werent able to get it figured out in time before my Brother pulled the plug, if it makes you feel better, you helped me quite a bit and educated myself on the AOD. So, thanks!

I'll get some pics up later on of the "infamous" AOD and the new TKO going in...

 

[FoMoCo17]

Sounds good! Sometimes they work out in your favor sometimes they don't but you have to fight when your right or you get taken advantage of!!! Valve body probably got trashed when the pump bearing went out. Those guys should have warrantied it immediately w/o any question since it sounds like you have plenty of experience. Yes, automatics are quite fun ... sometimes hard to diagnose but they are quite a piece of art!

 

[Gen414]

OK guys update (thinking FoMoCo is only one reading though, LOL!)

We got car up and running oh, about a month ago I guess. Picked up a TKO from D&D (I use them for my tranny parts I rebuild), along with aluminum bellhousing, Spec Stage 2+ disc and PP, billet steel SFI flywheel, aluminum quadrant, with adjustable cable and firewall adjuster. Got her in, and put some miles in, got clutch broke in, and everything good to go. car is BACK in shop and we are now:

Upgrading fuel system: I did a twin pump install in-tank, with 2 feeds out of tank, then "Y" into single line from tank to motor, did line in #8 for time being. If we REALLY step it up, just need to change that line from #8 over to #10, but the #8 should carry us for quite a while, obviously.
Picked up boost reference FP reg, 42 LB inj, fuel rails, Pro-M MAF, Innovate Wide Band, Auto meter Ultra-Lite's FP gauge and boost gauge.

Right now, the Vortech V-1 SC (even though obviously the SC is "outdated") is actually fairly new, with now only about 3K miles on it, but is pullied with the largest blower pulley, and smallest crank pulley Vortech makes. So, it's a "low boost" setup right now. But, once I get the new fuel system dialed in, with the current pulley setup, gonna base line car (it's still a street car, but still like to see what this or that does for a car) and then pick up 2 smaller blower pulleys, and I feel with just swapping the blower pulleys, that will get us to limit of the stock block, or close enough I should say.
Once we reach the limit, we'll go from there...Im trying to talk him into a Big Block Ford, poked and stroked to @ 512+", and pick up a set of the Kaase Boss heads..twin 76's maybe???? LMAO!!!!!



OK, AOD UPDATE

This trans shop, wow, what a piece of work they have turned out to be. get this. OK, I think I told you guys above, we disputed charges on credit card. Well, FINALLY American Express said trans shop IS fighting it. The trans shop of course, said it was MY fault, installation error. American Express evidently asked them WHY they think that. Ok, THIS is where it gets REALLY GOOD. the trans shop tells American Express, that when they got TRANS BACK FROM US THEY OPENED IT UP AND COULD TELL BY LOOKING AT IT THAT IT WAS INSTALLATION ERROR. Ok, you can argue that you can or can't tell how an automatic trans gave up by looking inside, but here is MY POINT: WE NEVER SENT THEM THE FREAKN TRANS TO LOOK AT!!!!!!!!!!
Thats right ladies and gentlemen, TRANSMISSION TO THIS VERY DAY IS STILL SITTING ON MY WORK BENCH!!!!!!!!!! LMAO!!!! Yep, so, NOW, you tell me how they were able to "open it up and look inside and tell it's installation error and do this from 1200 miles away??? We all know the answer to that..obviously you can't. So, we tell American Express that, and they wanted pictures with proof. So, grabbed local newspaper with date, and took a picture and sent to American Express. Still waiting on an answer, but safe to assume trans shop has now been caught in one lie, and doesnt bode well for them.

Wow..who would have ever thought would have turned into this...