no such thing as 94-95 K&N CAI?

Fopar · Jul 29, 2007

I'd like to get a CAI for my car but i'm only going to spend good money if it has a plastic intake tube (heat transfer reasons). Otherwise i'll just get an e-bay special.... so the K&Ns have the plastic ones but so far it appears the 94-95 kit doesn't have jack in it... what gives? Do they actually make one because thus far i've yet to see an actual pic...

This is what summit shows, it claims there's a tube but I don't see one ...
http://store.summitracing.com/large...ection+Performance+Kits&img=knn-57-2511_w.jpg

so do these kits actually exist?

stprorolla49 · Jul 29, 2007

If you want plastic, look into getting some nice silicon couplers from somewhere that sells a lotta turbo parts, and just get a bunch of PVC bends from home depot. You can paint it up however you want, and it shouldn't cost more than $30-40 to make.

final5-0 · Jul 29, 2007

If you know how to glue or weld stuff together

Just make your own

Grady

final5-0 · Jul 29, 2007

About that heat transfer thing

At WOT ... the air is traveling through the tube so fast it
doesn't have time to pick up ambient engine bay temps

Grady

Fopar · Jul 29, 2007

heat transfer is heat transfer, if it transfers 100kW of heat (100kJ per second) that's what it transfers, doesn't matter what the mass rate is. This is taught in ME's first thermo class..... I could do the PVC thing, but i'm not quite backyard mechanic enough to run around with that on my car . So am I right is there no K&N CAI for these cars? Someone tell me otherwise...

final5-0 · Jul 29, 2007

Fopar said:
heat transfer is heat transfer, if it transfers 100kW of heat (100kJ per second) that's what it transfers, doesn't matter what the mass rate is. This is taught in ME's first thermo class..... I could do the PVC thing, but i'm not quite backyard mechanic enough to run around with that on my car . So am I right is there no K&N CAI for these cars? Someone tell me otherwise...

Well it seems you got some knowledge that I'm interested in

Would you be so kind to simplify and expound for a fellow such as
myself who is mostly ... self taught

Grady

blksn955.o · Jul 29, 2007

If you can tie your shoes you can make a PVC intake setup for our cars. It is really easy. The only really nice thing about the K&N or like Air Sucky Tubes is the flange that mounts to the maf to adapt a filter too. Get the cheapest one you can find for that part alone if need be.

you can even put the filter in the fenderwell since the factory hole is about a perfect straight shot from the t-body. Put a 45 or 90* adapter on the end in the fender and add allitte straight piece to get the maf pointed in the right direction and save money.

ford302redneck · Jul 29, 2007

JLT makes a kit nowday days for us.

Check them out.

reddy351 · Jul 29, 2007

Originally Posted by Fopar
"heat transfer is heat transfer, if it transfers 100kW of heat (100kJ per second) that's what it transfers, doesn't matter what the mass rate is. This is taught in ME's first thermo class..... I could do the PVC thing, but i'm not quite backyard mechanic enough to run around with that on my car . So am I right is there no K&N CAI for these cars? Someone tell me otherwise..."

final5-0 said:
Well it seems you got some knowledge that I'm interested in

Would you be so kind to simplify and expound for a fellow such as
myself who is mostly ... self taught

Grady

I like to say things in a way that everyone can easily understand....sometimes I do ok, other times I fail.

Here goes:

At wot, the air is moving so fast through the tube that it doesn't have TIME (you DID mention "PER SECOND") to pick up a significant amount of heat. If it stayed there for a LONG time, it might, but it's in there for thousandths of a second. I'm not trying to call you out or anything Fopar, but if there is one thing that engineers do(student engineers included) is sometimes overthink things. (I'm wired that way, that's how I know.)

It looks like the K&N kit has the hardware, TB adapter and the filter. It prolly re-uses the OE tube to connect the MAF to the TB. I'd do the cheap a$$ Ebay kit, lest I be ripped off by K&N's "kit". (The K&N kit is $155 and to buy just the filter is $43. That come's to $112 for a couple of hose clamps and an adapter.)

drakesdad · Jul 29, 2007

I have the K N.....adaptor for the MAF to fit into the stock tubing and adaptor for the filter to hook directly to MAF.......

final5-0 · Jul 29, 2007

Fopar said:
heat transfer is heat transfer, if it transfers 100kW of heat (100kJ per second) that's what it transfers, doesn't matter what the mass rate is. This is taught in ME's first thermo class..... I could do the PVC thing, but i'm not quite backyard mechanic enough to run around with that on my car . So am I right is there no K&N CAI for these cars? Someone tell me otherwise...

I got a engineer friend who has made his living for many years in
the Automotive Air Conditioner field.

Of course he has had to deal with air flow in pipes, heat exchange
rates and the like.

He and I have had discussions about air intake systems many times. We
even used some of his air flow meters and equipment to test various bends,
convoluted tubing like Ford uses, and that kind of stuff to arrive at some
interesting findings for use on home made air intake systems

When I said the air flow would not be effected by the engine bay
heat at WOT, I based my info upon what I have learned from my
friend.

I called him and told him the application we are dealing with and I
read him your reply.

His answer was a ... quick reply of ... "That Guy Is Correct"

He then said there was a .......... HOWEVER

He said "While that guy has factual info" ... more factual info needs
to be considered in this particular application.

He explained about laminar air flow. It is a layer closely hugging
the outer most part of the pipe. It actually does not flow and it is
that outer thin layer that the heat is transfered to just as you
have talked about.

Since our length of pipe is quite short and the heat is only transfered
to that thin layer that hugs the pipe ... he says the bulk of the air mass
is flowing and if it is effected by engine bay temps at all ... its very little.

It is not my intention to argue or be on the offensive here

The info you shared ... seemed to me ... to be factual

I always gotta dig deeper when I see things along these lines

In this case ... it seems you and he both have good info
and
A whole bunch more of it than me

Grady

95MuStEtAnG · Jul 29, 2007

drakesdad said:
I have the K N.....adaptor for the MAF to fit into the stock tubing and adaptor for the filter to hook directly to MAF.......

I have the same thing. It's called a K N Densecharger.

drakesdad · Jul 29, 2007

I hope this helps.....I have went back to a straight Ebay tube....I had problems with the fitment with the bullet style MAF....

Fopar · Jul 30, 2007

There is no time basis, heat will be transfered no matter how fast it's moving. True there is a boundry layer but heat will still be transfered from the layer to the moving flow.

Now you are right in a round about way, at WOT the mass rate is so high that the small amount of heat transfer from the tube may not make much of a difference powerwise. IE if the amount of energy of the inlet air is coming in at 3500kJ/s and the heat transfer from the tube is 100kJ/s it's not going to make much difference. I haven't done any calcs but by measure of thumb you're probably right. But every little bit counts....

Will it make a huge difference, steel vs plastic... not likely (aluminum might). But the whole point of this thread is if K&N made a nice molded tube with their kit it might be worth it... (to me) but since they don't there's no point in getting it. Because to me it's a no brainer now, why spend 180$ on a BBK or other steel tube kit when I can get an ebay special for same money, and from what I see there's no appreciable difference....

BTW that K&N kit is really disappointing, I don't want to piss off anyone thats bought one but man what a rip off, it doesn't even isolate the air cleaner in the wheel well... you can accomplish the same thing with the stock air cleaner box and the right air cleaner....

final5-0 · Jul 30, 2007

I could not agree more about how some of those kits just don't offer
much for all the money they want from you.

Grady

go-stang5.0 · Jul 30, 2007

I was terrible at fluid dynamics but yea the closer you get to the inner wall of the tubing the slower the fluid flow will be, it approaches zero velocity the closer you get but it never actually is zero. But it's common practice to "assume" its zero at the wall and its pretty accurate so why not.It's just your basic pipeflow. Have you taken Fluid Dynamics yet Fopar? Also what school do you go to? I got 1 year left for my ME degree at UIC in chicago.

If you really wanna optimize things you could search for different plastics with different heat transfer coefficients. Or hears a good one....make a double walled tube with an air gap in between the tubing walls. Or if your rich you could fab this stuff up in titanium...that has a very low heat transfer coefficient and its super light. Or how about a titanium double walled tube...

I know none of this is really worth it but if you wanted to improve efficiency these are a few ways of doing it.

HISSIN50 · Jul 30, 2007

Even if the air is not affected, the IAT reading can be (though it's a polymer of some sort, the IAT sensor appears to be affected by hot CAI tubing). Either that or the chrome CAI's really do heat the incoming-air that much (I've seen IAT temps higher than ECT temps - both sensors have been bench tested for calibration as well).

final5-0 · Jul 30, 2007

HISSIN50 said:
Even if the air is not affected, the IAT reading can be (though it's a polymer of some sort, the IAT sensor appears to be affected by hot CAI tubing). Either that or the chrome CAI's really do heat the incoming-air that much (I've seen IAT temps higher than ECT temps - both sensors have been bench tested for calibration as well).

So true about that sensor

I can say for certain at a long stop light the temps rise but soon
as you get going ...they drop

Same can be said for a WOT first through third gear pass

The deeper you get into the pass the more the temp drops

Grady

blksn955.o · Jul 30, 2007

I have that same K&N setup, I bought it back in the summer of 99'. Within a year I had made a home made CAI with 2 fernco's.

gcomfx.com · Jul 30, 2007

I bought that kit used back in the day. It's now sitting in my garage, not on the car.

no such thing as 94-95 K&N CAI?

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