Ok Fellas, need some ignition help

[1990Coupe]

Did a search and couldn't find anyone with the issue im having, even after reading jrichkers tech thing I couldn't solve it. A couple of weeks ago while normal driving the car just died. No Spark.. Pulled out the spark plug of the no1 cylinder confirmed no spark. My car has HCI and 36lb injectors with stock ignition, so perfect time to upgrade since i was assuming the stock coil was fubar.

Today installed the MSD 6a box with a blaster 3 coil. Still no spark. I have power in from the battery, and the ground is good. Also coming from the car i have a wire with a red/green stripe and a yellow with a orange i believe. The red wire has power when i turn the key to on but the other wire doesnt have any power. Shouln't that wire have some kind of low voltage?? what else should i check? i have power in from the battery and that one red/green wire but nothing is coming out of the box to the coil.. im at a loss hopefully someone has expirence!!! b

 

[go4it]

The MSD doesn't completely replace the stock ignition, it just boosts/multiplies the spark, making a stronger spark than the stock. The stock ignition ( inputs to MSD box) still has to be working. Did you check the TFI module on the side of the distributor?

 

[1990Coupe]

The MSD doesn't completely replace the stock ignition, it just boosts/multiplys the spark, making a stronger spark than the stock. The stock ignition ( inputs to MSD box) still has to be working. Did you check the TFI module on the side of the distributor?

No i didnt check that only becasue im not even getting any kind of power to the new coil. As in i have no power at the coil. Could it be my key tumbler maybe??

 

[jrichker]

See item 1 G on the checklisk...

Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected Mustangs

Revised 24-Jun-2007 to update ignition switch testing

All text applies to all models unless stated otherwise.

Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red

1.) Remove push on connector from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch on. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.
No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped
B.) Coil
C.) TFI module
D.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. See paragraph 5A - a noid light will tell if the pip is working by flashing when the engine is cranking.
E.) No ECC or computer power - ECC or computer relay failure
86-93 models only: ECC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires
94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
F.) No ECC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid.
94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire with the switch in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position, then the fuse link is blown.
94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown - 20 amp fuse
H.) Computer
J.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI.

See the following links for wiring diagrams...

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/16/71/3c/0900823d8016713c.jsp for 79-88 model cars
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 86 model http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80167158.gif
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 87 model http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d8016715e.gif
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 88 model http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80167162.gif

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiB..._us/0900823d/80/19/59/5a/0900823d8019595a.jsp for 89-93 model cars
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 89-90 cars http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d8019595f.gif
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 91-93 cars
http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80195960.gif

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1d/db/3c/0900823d801ddb3c.jsp for 94-98 model cars

2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil

3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.

Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.

Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 5-20 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the EEC test connector and jump the connector in the Upper RH corner to ground. The EEC connector is near the wiper motor and LH hood hinge.

If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In a pinch, you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have. If you have any doubts about having sufficient fuel flow/pressure, rent a fuel pressure test gauge from the auto parts store. That will tell you for sure if you have adequate fuel pressure.


4.) No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) 86-90 models only: Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay.
91-93 models only Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
The fuse links for all model years 86-93 live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.
94-95 models only: 20 amp fuel pump fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the Dark green/yellow wire on the constant control relay module.
F.) Engine seem to load up on fuel and may have black smoke at the tailpipe. Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while the pump is running. If fuel is coming out the vacuum port, the regulator has failed. Check the regulator vacuum line for fuel too. Disconnect it from the engine and blow air though it. If you find gas, the regulator has failed.

5.) Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
A.) A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the injector wiring.
The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and it will flash if the injector is firing.
B.) I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
D.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
E.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).
F.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the ECC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
G.) TPS voltage exceeds 3.7 volts with the throttle closed. This will shut off the injectors, since the computer uses this strategy to clear a flooded engine. Use a DVM, a pair of safety pins, and probe the black/white and green wires to measure the TPS voltage. It should be .5-.99 volts with the key on, engine not running. Note that if the black/white wire (signal ground) has a bad connection, you will get some strange readings. Make a second measurement using the battery post as the ground to eliminate any ground problems. If the readings are different by more than 5%, you may have a high resistance condition in the black/white signal ground circuit.

6.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
A.) Failed IAB (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car.
B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently).
D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.



Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/ Everyone should bookmark this site.

Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg

HVAC vacuum diagram
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif

TFI module differences & pinout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif

 

[go4it]

Well I would check that or even take it to an auto parts store and have it tested. You can take the MSD back off and get the stock ignition sorted out first. The MSD is not going to work unless the stock stuff is working. Not being smart but I believe I would go back and do all of the test in jrichkers tech thing.

 

[1990Coupe]

I finally bought me a voltmeter i did the test jrichker said to do, and im getting 12 volts so at least i know its not a fuse.. I guess ill have to find someone with a stock coil, and try to get it working with the stocker . it doesnt make any sence tho

 

[HISSIN50]

I didnt really follow you, but if you have a test light, bias it across the two wires going to your coil. Have someone crank or start the engine and see if your test light flashes (like a pulsar star).

To reiterate JR's thoughts, the coil gets key-on 12 volts and the ground pulse to fire the coil comes from the TFI. If you have the flashing test light but no spark leaving the coil, the coil is likely bad.

Good luck.

 

[1990Coupe]

I didnt really follow you, but if you have a test light, bias it across the two wires going to your coil. Have someone crank or start the engine and see if your test light flashes (like a pulsar star).

To reiterate JR's thoughts, the coil gets key-on 12 volts and the ground pulse to fire the coil comes from the TFI. If you have the flashing test light but no spark leaving the coil, the coil is likely bad.

Good luck.

Let me understand what you are saying. at first, yes i had only a test light. My red/green wire from the coil made the light go on when i had the key in the run position. Your telling i can ground the test light with the other wire coming from the coil, and then put the light on the red/green wire and when i try to start the car the light should "pulse"? and this pulsing comes from the TFI on the Distributor? Am i understanding this right? so the TFI on the dizzy could still be bad?

 

[Busted07]

Send me your address, ill ship you out my stock coil today if you want it.

 

[1990Coupe]

thanks FBD your the mannnn!!!

So the TFI actually sends the signal to turn on the coil?????

 

[jrichker]

thanks FBD your the mannnn!!!

So the TFI actually sends the signal to turn on the coil?????

Yes.

It sems that we have not been entirely sucessful in conveying that concept in our first attempts...

Every automotive circuit needs a ground path to complete the circuit. The TFI provides the path to ground for the coil.

 

[1990Coupe]

I didnt really follow you, but if you have a test light, bias it across the two wires going to your coil. Have someone crank or start the engine and see if your test light flashes (like a pulsar star).

To reiterate JR's thoughts, the coil gets key-on 12 volts and the ground pulse to fire the coil comes from the TFI. If you have the flashing test light but no spark leaving the coil, the coil is likely bad.

Good luck.

OK, I replaced my TFI on the distributor.. When I test these two wires coming from the coil, one has 12v and when I place the test light on the two wires I do not get a pulse. It just lights up solid

 

[HISSIN50]

OK, I replaced my TFI on the distributor.. When I test these two wires coming from the coil, one has 12v and when I place the test light on the two wires I do not get a pulse. It just lights up solid

One note: You REALLY have to watch the test light closely because the light bulb in non-LED test lights has so much saturation that it barely begins to get dim before becoming illuminated again. That's why I liken it to a pulsar star (they spin so fast that to the untrained eye, they look like they are lit solid).

If you have doubts, an LED test light or even using a noid light with jumper wires to the coil's connector might be a good idea. You simply need to see that the ground pulses very quickly on and off.

Hope that makes sense...............

Now if the test light is indeed on constantly:
I would put a DMM on the 'ground wire' to the coil. Check for continuity to ground (in case the wire chafed and shorted out). This would certainly keep the car from running.

Good luck.

 

[1990Coupe]

Thanks Hissin..

All I have is a regular old test light. Not an LED one. So I guess it very well could have been blinking really fast I just couldn't notice it So IF the light is infact just solid lit, this still poses a problem with the ground possibly. And when you say DMM you mean Digital Multimeter? Also the ground wire to the coil is the Yellow one correct? Im sorry im asking so may questions im just bummed seeing my car sitting there for weeks

 

[HISSIN50]

So IF the light is infact just solid lit, this still poses a problem with the ground possibly.

Yep. You would have accessory 12 volts to one coil wire and a constant ground to the other wire. The test light would just be lit solid and the coil would not function properly.

And when you say DMM you mean Digital Multimeter? Also the ground wire to the coil is the Yellow one correct? Im sorry im asking so may questions im just bummed seeing my car sitting there for weeks

Yep on the DMM acronym.
I dont believe the coil ground is yellow. It's green with some sort of stripe as I recall (it's been awhile since I looked). There are two wires going to the coil's connector, and it's the one that doesnt ever show 12 volts. It's also the wire that an aftermarket tach is connected to (if you have one of those).

Good luck.

 

[1990Coupe]

Yep. You would have accessory 12 volts to one coil wire and a constant ground to the other wire. The test light would just be lit solid and the coil would not function properly.

Yep on the DMM acronym.
I dont believe the coil ground is yellow. It's green with some sort of stripe as I recall (it's been awhile since I looked). There are two wires going to the coil's connector, and it's the one that doesnt ever show 12 volts. It's also the wire that an aftermarket tach is connected to (if you have one of those).

Good luck.

Your right I dont think its yellow, I just know its not the red wire! haha. I don't have a DMM so that can't help me.. I had thought maybe the PIP sensor but in reading Jrichker's posts I see the PIP turns on the TFI and fires the injectors so maybe it couldn't be that? I only say that cause I definatly have fuel. As the engine is cranking thats all your smelling is fuel

G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire with the switch in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position, then the fuse link is blown.

When I tested this wire for 12v, I only did it in the run position. It also has to have 12v in the off position?!??!?! And if it doesn't then I could have a possible fuseable link blown somewhere?

 

[1990Coupe]

I tested the red wire again. In the off position im getting nothing. 0v. in the RUN position im not getting a full 12v im getting like 11.6v..

 

[HISSIN50]

I tested the red wire again. In the off position im getting nothing. 0v. in the RUN position im not getting a full 12v im getting like 11.6v..

That's fine - the 12 volts reference just means something near battery voltage, whatever it might be (as opposed to seeing VREF, aka ~ 5 volts).

The little coil test would have shown if the PIP and TFI are doing roughly what they should be.

 

[1990Coupe]

This test?

Remove push on connector from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch on. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.


I should have a stock coil today so hopefully I can get it running using that. At least i will be able to rule out the MSD box, and since the TFI is new, that only leaves the PIP and engine computer

 

[1990Coupe]

How many ground wires should I have? I wonder if not being grounded correctly would cause these problems