Operation 'Not Performance Improved'

[sneaky98gt]

Thanks for the compliments fellas!

I've been driving the car for barely a day, and the tally is already at 5 (random) people who have told me how good the car sounds, haha. I must admit that I'd probably go compliment some stranger if their car sounded just like mine.

Dyno is on for tomorrow afternoon. Car is currently running great and I can't wait to see what she lays down.

 

[Winters98GT]

What is the weather suppose to be like? These blower cars don't like hot dyno rooms, regardless of the correction factor.

 

[sneaky98gt]

What is the weather suppose to be like? These blower cars don't like hot dyno rooms, regardless of the correction factor.

It's not too bad. Upper 70s/lower 80s with some humidity. Not optimum, but not as bad as it could be either.

Any more predictions? I'm about to head out right now.

My prediction is 381/407.

 

[tank_567]

It's not too bad. Upper 70s/lower 80s with some humidity. Not optimum, but not as bad as it could be either.

Any more predictions? I'm about to head out right now.

My prediction is 381/407.

382/408

 

[wht93gtEd]

It's not too bad. Upper 70s/lower 80s with some humidity. Not optimum, but not as bad as it could be either.

Any more predictions? I'm about to head out right now.

My prediction is 381/407.

382/408

^ Dick...

I was just yelling @ Price is Right last week when I was off work because this a-hole old lady kept doing that. I told my wife I'd beat an old person if that lady was doing that to me and I were on the show

or you could be liek this guy
price is right fail - YouTube

sorry; no hijack!!

 

[N8Dogg98]

362/395

 

[Stumbaugh]

375/400

 

[trombonedemon]

Is hoping nothing goes wrong at the dyno, he has made me nervous.

 

[tank_567]

any updates Will!?

 

[sneaky98gt]

Wow. Not even hardly worth mentioning. I'm so disappointed it's not even funny.

We wound up getting 344/351 (uncorrected). We tried EVERYTHING: small meth nozzle, no meth nozzle, big meth nozzle, 16 degrees of timing, 20 degrees of timing, 23 degrees of timing, 11.5 AFR, 12.0 AFR, 12.4 AFR. Nothing seemed to change anything. It was always right around 340 rwhp and 350 rwtq.

While that is only 15 more rwhp and 15 more rwtq, my last dyno run (320/335 uncorrected) was in March in about 40 degree weather. It was roughly 80 outside today. How much difference that 40 degrees would make, who knows. I do know that on the very first baseline pull, with nothing at all changed from the previous tune, it only made about 275 rwhp and 300 ftlbs of torque. So what I'm driving today is making 70 more rwhp and 50 ft-lbs of torque more than what I was driving yesterday. So I guess that's pretty nice, haha.

Something still isn't right with the tune. We ran out of time this evening and only got to drive it for a few minutes. It ran fine during that time, but after I had left and driven it for a while, I started noticing a few problems. It has some sort of hesitation as soon as I hit the gas and every time the torque converter tries to lock up. I'm not sure exactly what is going on. I'll be giving my tuner a call soon as I get a chance to talk about fixing it. I will say, when it's pulling like it's supposed to, I can tell a BIG difference in the power it's making. It is making a LOT more than it's ever made before, even in the cold winter air.

*sigh* It's been a long day. I'm gonna go have a beer.

 

[nickmckinney]

80 to 40 is a biiiiiig change for a non intercooled blower like that. The power should have changed with the fual and spark curves some though. Were you able to keep the converter locked during the WOT runs?

 

[sneaky98gt]

80 to 40 is a biiiiiig change for a non intercooled blower like that. The power should have changed with the fual and spark curves some though. Were you able to keep the converter locked during the WOT runs?

Yea, I really think a dyno pull in 40 degree weather would yield quite different results....

I'll go through what I remember of the pulls and the results we got.

1. No meth. 12.2 AFR. 15 degrees of timing. 220ish IATs. 330 rwhp.
2. 3 GPH nozzle. 12.0 AFR with meth. 18 degrees of timing. 190 degree IATs. 344 rwhp. Backed this up with another identical pull.
3. 3 GPH + 7 GPH. Left the fuel where it was with the 3 GPH pull. Added 2 degrees for a total of 20 degrees of timing. Wound up with a 11.4-11.5 AFR. 150 degree IATs. 338 rwhp.
4. 7 GPH + 7 GPH. Pulled out a lot of fuel. Wound up with 11.7 AFR with meth (almost 13 without....). Added 3 more degrees of timing for a total 23 degrees of timing. 110 degree IATs. 340 rwhp.

Pull #4 is EXACTLY what Mr. RobertP (the SVO blower guy on the TCCoA forums, for you who don't know) swears by on these cars. But it only made 10 more rwhp than no meth at all, and a few rwhp less than a much smaller nozzle.

What do y'all think? It seems very strange to me that pull #4 only gained 10 rwhp over pull #1. I mean, 110 degree drop in IATs AND 8 degrees of timing only got 10 rwhp!?!? That just does not seem right to me. But the lack of big power gains with the meth in the other pulls seems to rule out the idea of an anomaly either.

That being said, I KNOW that there is a gain to be had with the meth. A few weeks ago, I clocked a 2.5 mph average gain with the methanol in the 1/4. I had a single 7 GPH nozzle, added 4 degrees of timing, and leaned it out as much as I could (which was still only upper 10s). So I don't see why I'm seeing less than 10 rwhp gain with twice as much meth and twice as much additional timing, with a much more reasonable AFR.

I don't know. This crap is puzzling me. Maybe the dyno isn't telling the whole tale with the methanol; maybe there's something to be had on the street/track that isn't being measured by the dyno. I don't know. When I go to the track (which will be soon), I fully intend on playing with all those different tunes/meth nozzle combinations to see what I get on the track.


On a side note, I reloaded the tune and my problems with the hesitation went away. I'm not sure what was going on there, but it seems to be fixed. The car is running like a freaking champ right now! It may only have made 20 more rwhp than my last dyno pull, but it is making WAY more power right now, in 75 degree weather, than it ever has, at any temp. No doubt about it.

The high is 62 degrees on Sunday, and a local track is having a TnT that afternoon. I think I know where I'll be come Sunday.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Oh, and the converter was locked for the 2nd part of each dyno run (something like 4500 RPM, IIRC). The peak torque number would be higher with a locked converter throughout the RPM range (probably 15ish extra ft-lbs), but the peak horsepower would be the same.

 

[Winters98GT]

Tell your tuner to spray it with 100% M1. I'm a firm believer in 100% and not a mix.

I have personally seen cars lose 70rwhp from just 45* to 95+* air. My good buddys car put down 650/600 when it was cool. Then, it put down 581/577 on the same dyno and the dyno room was like 106*. I really wouldn't sweat it that much.

I think Sunday will help you out quite a bit. Good luck, Will!

 

[midnightdriver]

Yea, I really think a dyno pull in 40 degree weather would yield quite different results....

I'll go through what I remember of the pulls and the results we got.

1. No meth. 12.2 AFR. 15 degrees of timing. 220ish IATs. 330 rwhp.
2. 3 GPH nozzle. 12.0 AFR with meth. 18 degrees of timing. 190 degree IATs. 344 rwhp. Backed this up with another identical pull.
3. 3 GPH + 7 GPH. Left the fuel where it was with the 3 GPH pull. Added 2 degrees for a total of 20 degrees of timing. Wound up with a 11.4-11.5 AFR. 150 degree IATs. 338 rwhp.
4. 7 GPH + 7 GPH. Pulled out a lot of fuel. Wound up with 11.7 AFR with meth (almost 13 without....). Added 3 more degrees of timing for a total 23 degrees of timing. 110 degree IATs. 340 rwhp.

Pull #4 is EXACTLY what Mr. RobertP (the SVO blower guy on the TCCoA forums, for you who don't know) swears by on these cars. But it only made 10 more rwhp than no meth at all, and a few rwhp less than a much smaller nozzle.

What do y'all think? It seems very strange to me that pull #4 only gained 10 rwhp over pull #1. I mean, 110 degree drop in IATs AND 8 degrees of timing only got 10 rwhp!?!? That just does not seem right to me. But the lack of big power gains with the meth in the other pulls seems to rule out the idea of an anomaly either.

That being said, I KNOW that there is a gain to be had with the meth. A few weeks ago, I clocked a 2.5 mph average gain with the methanol in the 1/4. I had a single 7 GPH nozzle, added 4 degrees of timing, and leaned it out as much as I could (which was still only upper 10s). So I don't see why I'm seeing less than 10 rwhp gain with twice as much meth and twice as much additional timing, with a much more reasonable AFR.

I don't know. This crap is puzzling me. Maybe the dyno isn't telling the whole tale with the methanol; maybe there's something to be had on the street/track that isn't being measured by the dyno. I don't know. When I go to the track (which will be soon), I fully intend on playing with all those different tunes/meth nozzle combinations to see what I get on the track.


On a side note, I reloaded the tune and my problems with the hesitation went away. I'm not sure what was going on there, but it seems to be fixed. The car is running like a freaking champ right now! It may only have made 20 more rwhp than my last dyno pull, but it is making WAY more power right now, in 75 degree weather, than it ever has, at any temp. No doubt about it.

The high is 62 degrees on Sunday, and a local track is having a TnT that afternoon. I think I know where I'll be come Sunday.

Whats your boost? Maybe the meth is too much for the amount of boost you have at the moment, how about an overdrive crank pulley?

And cheer up about those numbers, the rollers don't tell the whole story.

 

[Winters98GT]

Whats your boost? Maybe the meth is too much for the amount of boost you have at the moment, how about an overdrive crank pulley?

Not the issue. The overdrive Crank Pulley will require him to change the blower pulley to a smaller one to get back that boost. As long as there is no belt slip, I don't see a need to change the crank pulley. Also, I believe Will is spraying a mixture of mostly water, not meth.

I would up the meth to 100% M1, and adjust how much meth is being delivered through the meth control unit, not the nozzle size.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Not the issue. The overdrive Crank Pulley will require him to change the blower pulley to a smaller one to get back that boost.

An overdrive crank pulley....not an underdrive crank pulley. An overdriving the crank pulley (larger) is going to have him gain boost pressure, not lose it.

I agree though....if he's not seeing any belt slip, I'm wouldn't worry about it. The biggest issue besides lack of cooler that the SVO guys face is inlet restriction. Even with porting, a 70mm inlet is about all you’ve got to work with.

Will, there is a chance that those blower cams are bleeding off a little boost in the lower regions as well. I've never found blower cams to be ideal for a Positive Displacement blown engine. Blower cams usually result in a pickup in upper horsepower levels, with a loss in torque anytime I've ever seen anyone use them. Centrifugals that ramp up the airflow much slower tend to really benefit from them, but in most cases I've seen, Positive Displacement blowers respond best to N/A cams.

FWIW, I was seeing 343rwhp/387rwtq through my PI headed, stock PI cam Cougar at 14-degree's with my overdriven Allen blower the last time I had it on the dyno. It made nearly 350lbs/ft from as low as 1,800RPM and I was seeing about 9-10 psi on a hot day, with nearly 230-degree ACT's. Car ran mid/high 12's at 109mph at nearly 4,100lbs with driver, through a 4R70W automatic transmission and IRS. So don't fret.

340RWHP is enough to get you into the 11's with some traction. I think RobertP is well into the 11's with his now and his car is a lot heavier, with a lot less forgiving drivetrain.

 

[sneaky98gt]

Tell your tuner to spray it with 100% M1. I'm a firm believer in 100% and not a mix.

I have personally seen cars lose 70rwhp from just 45* to 95+* air. My good buddys car put down 650/600 when it was cool. Then, it put down 581/577 on the same dyno and the dyno room was like 106*. I really wouldn't sweat it that much.

I think Sunday will help you out quite a bit. Good luck, Will!

Well, I mentioned that. BUT, we had already thrown a BUNCH of timing at it (23 degrees is a LOT for a non-intercooled car) and it literally didn't pick up anything over just 18 degrees of timing.

My tuner brought up a VERY good point that I had never thought of before. About meth and lowering IATs. He pointed out that it does in fact lower the IATs (we saw that on the dyno), and thus it allows you to run more timing. What it does NOT do is increase the density of the air going into the motor; only cooler/dryer ambient air can do that. Even if we do cool it down 100+ degrees with the methanol, it still only has as much oxygen in it as the ambient air.

His theory is that that ambient air temp is only going to make so much power; it doesn't matter how much timing you throw at it (after a certain point). When we made the 344 rwhp pull on 18 degrees of timing, he looked at me and said "that's pretty much it." Not believing that, we spend the next two hours playing with the meth, and sure enough, that was it.

He also predicted that with cooler ambient air, it would make more power because of the increased oxygen charge AND because more timing would actually make more power as well. That's why I've seen recorded a huge increase in power in the winter months. And I can tell ya, if I get that same increase in power RIGHT NOW from that cooler weather, this car is going to be making a lot more than 344 rwhp...

The high here is 60 both Saturday and Sunday. I'm fully intending to do a lot of data logging and hit the track on Sunday. If it picks up as much power going from 80 degrees to 50 degrees now as it used to, it's going to run a lot faster than 12.57 (hopefully).

Whats your boost? Maybe the meth is too much for the amount of boost you have at the moment, how about an overdrive crank pulley?

And cheer up about those numbers, the rollers don't tell the whole story.

My gauge was showing 7 pounds, his was showing less than 6. He told me straight up that 2-3 more pounds of boost would not hurt one thing on this car.

An overdrive crank pulley....not an underdrive crank pulley. An overdriving the crank pulley (larger) is going to have him gain boost pressure, not lose it.

I agree though....if he's not seeing any belt slip, I'm wouldn't worry about it. The biggest issue besides lack of cooler that the SVO guys face is inlet restriction. Even with porting, a 70mm inlet is about all you’ve got to work with.

Will, there is a chance that those blower cams are bleeding off a little boost in the lower regions as well. I've never found blower cams to be ideal for a Positive Displacement blown engine. Blower cams usually result in a pickup in upper horsepower levels, with a loss in torque anytime I've ever seen anyone use them. Centrifugals that ramp up the airflow much slower tend to really benefit from them, but in most cases I've seen, Positive Displacement blowers respond best to N/A cams.

FWIW, I was seeing 343rwhp/387rwtq through my PI headed, stock PI cam Cougar at 14-degree's with my overdriven Allen blower the last time I had it on the dyno. It made nearly 350lbs/ft from as low as 1,800RPM and I was seeing about 9-10 psi on a hot day, with nearly 230-degree ACT's. Car ran mid/high 12's at 109mph at nearly 4,100lbs with driver, through a 4R70W automatic transmission and IRS. So don't fret.

340RWHP is enough to get you into the 11's with some traction. I think RobertP is well into the 11's with his now and his car is a lot heavier, with a lot less forgiving drivetrain.

No belt slip at all. As posted above, I'm only seeing around 7 pounds of boost with the 3.3 pulley. My tuner said he's seen guys run 2.8 pulleys on these cars with no belt slip. I was honestly hoping for a solid 8 pounds of boost, but it's just not doing it. I'm definitely considering a smaller pulley, maybe 3.0 or 3.1.

The cams I have are nearly identical in spec to the Comp 268hs that the TCCoA guys like to run. They actually have a little less duration at the same LSA, which would mean less overlap.

If it's losing power low, I can't tell it. On the dyno, comparing my old run to the one yesterday, it gained 15-20 ft-lbs across the board, from 3500 rpm up. On the street however, it definitely FEELS a lot stronger up top than it used to.

 

[ItsStock02]

One word....nitrous! A 25 shot would be awesome and probably do you really good.

 

[trombonedemon]

An overdrive crank pulley....not an underdrive crank pulley. An overdriving the crank pulley (larger) is going to have him gain boost pressure, not lose it.

I agree though....if he's not seeing any belt slip, I'm wouldn't worry about it. The biggest issue besides lack of cooler that the SVO guys face is inlet restriction. Even with porting, a 70mm inlet is about all you’ve got to work with.

Will, there is a chance that those blower cams are bleeding off a little boost in the lower regions as well. I've never found blower cams to be ideal for a Positive Displacement blown engine. Blower cams usually result in a pickup in upper horsepower levels, with a loss in torque anytime I've ever seen anyone use them. Centrifugals that ramp up the airflow much slower tend to really benefit from them, but in most cases I've seen, Positive Displacement blowers respond best to N/A cams.

FWIW, I was seeing 343rwhp/387rwtq through my PI headed, stock PI cam Cougar at 14-degree's with my overdriven Allen blower the last time I had it on the dyno. It made nearly 350lbs/ft from as low as 1,800RPM and I was seeing about 9-10 psi on a hot day, with nearly 230-degree ACT's. Car ran mid/high 12's at 109mph at nearly 4,100lbs with driver, through a 4R70W automatic transmission and IRS. So don't fret.

340RWHP is enough to get you into the 11's with some traction. I think RobertP is well into the 11's with his now and his car is a lot heavier, with a lot less forgiving drivetrain.

Thats a very good point.

I was reading about people having vacuum problems with cams that have too high of lift or are too agressive. Thus needing a vacuum pump like the earlier Stangs.

Here is a theory though off the top of my head could the the cams be to much for a positive deplacement Super Charger. Would something with lower lift be ideal.

Yea Will, I've seen your car hook really well, at least you've gain horsepower, I'm willing to bet you are in the 11's with great weather and track conditions!!!