mikestang63
SN Certified Technician
Outnumbered By Idiots
- Thread starter tannerc91gt
- Start date
LiquidStangs
Well-Known Member
I'll just leave these two videos here. Both from Motor Trend/Hot Rod.
Beyond the made-up rankings ("chicks dig it"?), EFI was +13 HP and +5 ft/lbs. over carb on the same engine.
Two guys tune their cars, then have them tuned by a pro on a dyno, and the guy with the smallest difference between the two wins. The carb guy spends the whole video tweaking and gets all dirty, yet still ends up 20 HP short of the pro tuner. The EFI guy sets his computer to auto-learn and spends the rest of the video playing Solitaire, and still comes within 5 HP of the tuner's total.
Not that I'd know; my great tuning achievement was to keep my car from stalling at idle... most of the time. But they seem like relevant videos.
Beyond the made-up rankings ("chicks dig it"?), EFI was +13 HP and +5 ft/lbs. over carb on the same engine.
Two guys tune their cars, then have them tuned by a pro on a dyno, and the guy with the smallest difference between the two wins. The carb guy spends the whole video tweaking and gets all dirty, yet still ends up 20 HP short of the pro tuner. The EFI guy sets his computer to auto-learn and spends the rest of the video playing Solitaire, and still comes within 5 HP of the tuner's total.
Not that I'd know; my great tuning achievement was to keep my car from stalling at idle... most of the time. But they seem like relevant videos.
I really enjoyed the second video. I've used the Holley system on a couple cars now and the self-tuning, while it has its shortfalls, is literally idiot proof. Which I certainly put to the test lol. Carbs are stupid, I'd like it put on my headstone
Knuckledragger, huh? Yeah! Well.....you're momma's ugly.....and fat too! So shut up.
Knuckledragger, huh? Yeah! Well.....you're momma's ugly.....and fat too! So shut up.
just got real
Knuckledragger, huh? Yeah! Well.....you're momma's ugly.....and fat too! So shut up.
just got real
Well...... so... and?Knuckledragger, huh? Yeah! Well.....you're momma's ugly.....and fat too! So shut up.
This is why I don't do Facebook.
Hell, I'm starting to hate Instagram too.
Sent from my big ass iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
Hell, I'm starting to hate Instagram too.
Sent from my big ass iPhone 6 using Tapatalk
BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
There is NOTHING worth reading on FB that isn't a meme.
**Sigh**
......................Where do I even start?
How does any, self respecting "car guy" justify the benefits of EFI over a carburetor solely because it's "idiot proof" and that "it does the tuning for you"?
Let me put that in context...
"Hmmmm,......what to do,...what to do. I need a fuel metering system, but I'm conflicted. While ordinarily, I'd take offense, the simple truth when looking at my capabilities in working on, and in tuning a car is that I'm an idiot, I'm lazy."
Guess that I'd better play it safe and buy a self learning EFI system then, and pay a guy to install it for me.
What a crock of sht.
The fact of the matter for me is now that I have a "self learning EFI" system,....I may as well be an idiot. I would venture to say that most of the respondents here would be in the same boat if they had to try and figure out what is wrong when their aftermarket system has an issue and they don't have a "CHECK ENGINE" light glowing on the dash so they can plug in an OBD code scanner to tell them what to fix.
If everybody didn't have that benefit,....the score for EFI would fall off of a cliff.
Just like with every other system we have in daily life, if a computer fails, or one of its data collecting sensors stop collecting data.....Things crash.
You end up standing in line because they can't check you out,....Your check didn't post, you didn't get paid, or any one of a dozen other computer based "hanging chads" stops your guy from getting elected...
Here in this context,........you're dead in the water,...or your junk runs like junk.
Look at a carburetor for what it is.....An amazing machine,...that for the most part (as evidenced in Vid 1) was right, right out of the box for the most part. It ran on the dual plane manifold that the EFI system absolutely would not. And despite the antics in the second Vid of the big guy,...I'll take the old school process of making the engine run at it's peak anyday.
Carburetors have been used since a car was first made,..and they have evolved to be really amazing devices.
The false common consensus that you are constantly having to dick with them,..is purely that,......false.
You get the correct unit when you buy it,....you put it on the engine,....you do simple tuning (That most here may or may not have ever done), and you're done..........for years. No codes,.....no sensors giving out faulty readings,.....easy, peasy. No wiring,....no set up,...just 4 nuts threaded onto the studs that hold it down, and a fuel line. How can there be a more "idiot proof" solution that that?
Unless you've dealt with a carburetor,...you don't have a dog in the fight.
As for the idiots on Facebook,............I don't get on facebook.
There's nothing but a bunch of idiots there taking pictures of food.
See the pic below,.....that's me,...looking at a spark plug,...it's what you do when you're trying to tune a car w/o the benefit of a laptop,.....not dirty,...not sweating,....
......................Where do I even start?
How does any, self respecting "car guy" justify the benefits of EFI over a carburetor solely because it's "idiot proof" and that "it does the tuning for you"?
Let me put that in context...
"Hmmmm,......what to do,...what to do. I need a fuel metering system, but I'm conflicted. While ordinarily, I'd take offense, the simple truth when looking at my capabilities in working on, and in tuning a car is that I'm an idiot, I'm lazy."
Guess that I'd better play it safe and buy a self learning EFI system then, and pay a guy to install it for me.
What a crock of sht.
The fact of the matter for me is now that I have a "self learning EFI" system,....I may as well be an idiot. I would venture to say that most of the respondents here would be in the same boat if they had to try and figure out what is wrong when their aftermarket system has an issue and they don't have a "CHECK ENGINE" light glowing on the dash so they can plug in an OBD code scanner to tell them what to fix.
If everybody didn't have that benefit,....the score for EFI would fall off of a cliff.
Just like with every other system we have in daily life, if a computer fails, or one of its data collecting sensors stop collecting data.....Things crash.
You end up standing in line because they can't check you out,....Your check didn't post, you didn't get paid, or any one of a dozen other computer based "hanging chads" stops your guy from getting elected...
Here in this context,........you're dead in the water,...or your junk runs like junk.
Look at a carburetor for what it is.....An amazing machine,...that for the most part (as evidenced in Vid 1) was right, right out of the box for the most part. It ran on the dual plane manifold that the EFI system absolutely would not. And despite the antics in the second Vid of the big guy,...I'll take the old school process of making the engine run at it's peak anyday.
Carburetors have been used since a car was first made,..and they have evolved to be really amazing devices.
The false common consensus that you are constantly having to dick with them,..is purely that,......false.
You get the correct unit when you buy it,....you put it on the engine,....you do simple tuning (That most here may or may not have ever done), and you're done..........for years. No codes,.....no sensors giving out faulty readings,.....easy, peasy. No wiring,....no set up,...just 4 nuts threaded onto the studs that hold it down, and a fuel line. How can there be a more "idiot proof" solution that that?
Unless you've dealt with a carburetor,...you don't have a dog in the fight.
As for the idiots on Facebook,............I don't get on facebook.
There's nothing but a bunch of idiots there taking pictures of food.
See the pic below,.....that's me,...looking at a spark plug,...it's what you do when you're trying to tune a car w/o the benefit of a laptop,.....not dirty,...not sweating,....
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- Dec 19, 2010
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**Sigh**
......................Where do I even start?
How does any, self respecting "car guy" justify the benefits of EFI over a carburetor solely because it's "idiot proof" and that "it does the tuning for you"?
Let me put that in context...
"Hmmmm,......what to do,...what to do. I need a fuel metering system, but I'm conflicted. While ordinarily, I'd take offense, the simple truth when looking at my capabilities in working on, and in tuning a car is that I'm an idiot, I'm lazy."
Guess that I'd better play it safe and buy a self learning EFI system then, and pay a guy to install it for me.
What a crock of sht.
The fact of the matter for me is now that I have a "self learning EFI" system,....I may as well be an idiot. I would venture to say that most of the respondents here would be in the same boat if they had to try and figure out what is wrong when their aftermarket system has an issue and they don't have a "CHECK ENGINE" light glowing on the dash so they can plug in an OBD code scanner to tell them what to fix.
If everybody didn't have that benefit,....the score for EFI would fall off of a cliff.
Just like with every other system we have in daily life, if a computer fails, or one of its data collecting sensors stop collecting data.....Things crash.
You end up standing in line because they can't check you out,....Your check didn't post, you didn't get paid, or any one of a dozen other computer based "hanging chads" stops your guy from getting elected...
Here in this context,........you're dead in the water,...or your junk runs like junk.
Look at a carburetor for what it is.....An amazing machine,...that for the most part (as evidenced in Vid 1) was right, right out of the box for the most part. It ran on the dual plane manifold that the EFI system absolutely would not. And despite the antics in the second Vid of the big guy,...I'll take the old school process of making the engine run at it's peak anyday.
Carburetors have been used since a car was first made,..and they have evolved to be really amazing devices.
The false common consensus that you are constantly having to dick with them,..is purely that,......false.
You get the correct unit when you buy it,....you put it on the engine,....you do simple tuning (That most here may or may not have ever done), and you're done..........for years. No codes,.....no sensors giving out faulty readings,.....easy, peasy.
Unless you've dealt with a carburetor,...you don't have a dog in the fight.
As for the idiots on Facebook,............I don't get on facebook.
There's nothing but a bunch of idiots there taking pictures of food.
See the pic below,.....that's me,...looking at a spark plug,...it's what you do when you're trying to tune a car w/o the benefit of a laptop,.....not dirty,...not sweating,....
It's kind of funny how from 1908 up until about 1985-87 production cars ran those terrible carbs. I owned several... That never needed adjusting. And I never had the frustration of a pcm spitting out codes that weren't actually the root of the problem. Carbs are outdated, but they came on production cars for the better part of a century.. How on earth could that happen if they are junk?
I agree to that....a carburetor has it's limitations. ( Before Joe gets on here and starts citing the "drive it into the mountains" scenario) It cannot deal well w/ air density changes w/o a retune,..but who drives their race car from Kansas to Colorado daily anyway?
As long as somebody is talking about a "stock" EFI system i.e. EEC IV, there is no contest between a carb and the EFI system,...the EFI car will self tune, and diagnose. The EFI guy gets to stand on his soap box tell me how easy it is.
Throw a MSII/3 (or any aftermarket EFI system for that matter) on a car and eliminate the self diag feature...
How easy will it be when something goes wrong then?
I'm on a generic forums where there happens to be an automotive board. One of the common themes is that many people refuse to own a car newer than 20-30 years or so due to "damn computers making it impossible to work on your own car anymore"
Now I've got a tendency to think that your posts are directed at me, which in this case I would be lead to believe I'm correct.
That's not the SOLE benefit. It's one of many. And let's not get carried away with the self-learning tool. It's not idiot proof in the sense that you plug it in and away you go without a care in the world clicking off single digit passes. It's idiot proof in the sense that it will try its best to keep you from imploding upon loading up your fanciest "I don't know what I'm doing tune". And you certainly don't have to pay someone to do it for you. The entire appeal is the ability to teach myself without blowing someone else's car up in the process.
I'm not familiar with the self-diagnosis features, maybe that's something the MS has going for it over the Holley systems and older Ms system I've used.
The "drive it in the mountains" and "they used it for x years before EFI" lines of reasoning are both flawed in my opinion.
We used to have covered wagons as well for WAY more years than that and I don't pass many of them on the highway these days....
Better, more efficient technology came along and replaced it.
You can drive a carb vehicle into the mountains all the same, you'll notice some changes, sure but ask yourself just what in the hell you're doing driving so far up the mountain to begin with
Carbs have their place. Nostalgia Vehicles, class specified race cars, idiots who can't troubleshoot their Factory EFI system (which if you've been on the forum long I'm sure you've seen numerous times), and guys who just like carbs. People tend to fall into one of those categories. Nothing wrong with having a personal preference.
But it's crazy to me to say that with all the advancement in EFI, all of the fuel control and injector timing capability we have and the ability to data log umpteen parameters at once and dial in every area along the RPM band that anyone would say a carb is still a contender, I just disagree.
It's got nothing to do with being a self-proclaimed "car guy". Any real car guy would still have a steam engine.
I will absolutely agree that carb technology hasn't been stagnant since 1985 by any means. They release new carbs all the time and there are PLENTY of fast carb cars that make more power than I'll ever be able to.
Guess it's a preference like I said above, I've got zero interest in old school carb tuning for the sake of feeling more accomplished.
It was interesting how much work that seemingly knowledgable guy in the second video put into the carb just to show up and have the tuner tell him it was entirely **** up.
This all stems from a post from a guy who couldn't figure out his EFI system. It turned out to be a rotted vacuum line for anyone interested.
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In general id agree. I'm in some excellent car groups on Facebook though. It's the only reason I haven't given it up entirely.
There are a ton of knowledgable people who are easily accessible to pick their brains on any subject under the sun. Unfortunately it's what's killing car forums. Which given the choice I'd always prefer the community type feel of a page like Stangnet
You should still be reading plugs with EFI, as I'm sure you do Mike.
Laptop can't do everything for you, what fun would that be?
Laptop can't do everything for you, what fun would that be?
Not sure I'd call a carb'd car junk. It's just older technology.
This is probably going to rub a few people the wrong way , but it's my opinion so take it how you will.
Education isn't about earning a degree. It's about learning how to use critical thinking skills to educate yourself on how to solve problems.
Think of when people thought the world was flat. "Don't go to the end, else you fall off." So nobody ventured out that way. One guy decided to take the trip and holy sh*t, the world is round after all.
In my experience, people who have high praise for carbs are afraid to venture out to the end of the world. They don't want to learn what all the sensors are for, how the computer uses the sensors, and why you can't do certain things with certain setups. It's seen as a black box of voodoo and it needs to be ripped out and replaced with what's in their comfort zone.
This is why I choose to build my own stuff and sometimes fail at it. I keep learning why the world is round.
Education isn't about earning a degree. It's about learning how to use critical thinking skills to educate yourself on how to solve problems.
Think of when people thought the world was flat. "Don't go to the end, else you fall off." So nobody ventured out that way. One guy decided to take the trip and holy sh*t, the world is round after all.
In my experience, people who have high praise for carbs are afraid to venture out to the end of the world. They don't want to learn what all the sensors are for, how the computer uses the sensors, and why you can't do certain things with certain setups. It's seen as a black box of voodoo and it needs to be ripped out and replaced with what's in their comfort zone.
This is why I choose to build my own stuff and sometimes fail at it. I keep learning why the world is round.
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