Paul Here is your TECH/ Debate thread.

When you start tuning your own car you start to learn a lot about how the EEC works, and how the MAF is the most integral part of it. The Pro-m mafs are calibrated individual and are very close to whatever they are caled for. They also give you the flow sheet which is great for any kind of tuning. The C&L "Sampling tube" is nothing more than close enough, or should be good enough for driving. And since most people just get a chip & tune the tuners can just tune AROUND the problems that a C&L brings up. Pro-M all the way.

AND pro-m going out of buisness has nothing to do with the amount of sales they have, it was purely an internal personel problem, and they are now back in buisness under a different name.
 
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Killercanary said:
With a comment like that you obviouysly don't know the situation. The original owner passed away and the new group were a bunch of idiots and ran it into the ground. Its still a superior product. Pro-M's employees are supposedly buying the company and trying to restore it to the way it once was... we shall see.



OK, here's my take on the meters...

I do not like C&L. Let me first give a little detail as to how a meter works, as it will help explain why I don't like them. A MAF is nothing more than devise that tells the EEC how much air is flowing into the motor. It does this by a very thin wire that acts like a resistor with a small amount of voltage passing through it. The more air that flows over it the cooler the wire gets and since it acts as a resistor the voltage will change with the temp. That's all it does, nothing more and nothing less. Since the incomming air can be at different temps the EEC also used an ACT (Air Charge temperature) sensor. With these two sensors the EEC can determine what amount of air is coming in and adjust the injector pulse wdith accordingly. When we get larger injectors we need a "re-cal'd" MAF. What this means is that in order to maintain the correct fuel delivery per certain amoutn of air the voltage will need to be altered. Pro-M did this with NEW electronics. Basically the MAF will send a "tricked" voltage to the EEC and tell it that LESS air is coming into the motor than there really is. The EEC sees this voltage and shortens up the pulsewidth on the injector... BUT since the injector is larger than stock more fuel is supplied for that pre determined pulsewidth. This is a problem for 94-95 cars because they are the MAF voltage to determine LOAD. The old fox's were more of an RPM based EEC, ours is more of a LOAD based EEC. The EEC uses LOAD for damn near every table in it, includind the fuel and timing maps. This is also why our cars are more sensative to MAF's than the 93-older cars. Now that I've explained a little on how it works, let me tell you why I don't like C&L.

Pro-M accomplishes it "tricked" voltage through new electronics in the MAF itself. This is good because it is CONSISTENT, meaning that you know exactly what the meter is going to do. Now the C&L take an a different approach. Instead of tricking the voltage by electronics, it simply alters the amount of airflow that reaches the MAF wires. It retains the stock electronics, but there are different "sampling tubes" which are nothing more thna a small piece of aluminum with a hole through the middle of it which air passes through. The problem is that there is a LOT that can effect the amount of air that passes through the metereing tube and can cause issues. Some of those are tubulent air, areas of higher or lower air velocity within the meter itself etc. The pro-m is vulnerable to this as well, but since its relying on electronics its more consistent as to what it does.

My dad went with a C&L 76mm MAF on his 91GT. On the dyno we could not make 2 consecutive pulls with repeatable results. He had the C&L tube with a conical filter on the end inside the engine bay just like I used to have with my Pro-M in my 95 without any problems. No matter what the tuner did he could not get the A/F ratio to remain the same on every dyno run. It was a wasted trip because they could not tune the car. We then put the stock airbox back on with a K&N panel filter and went back to the dyno... this cured the problem and made it repeatable, but it shows how sensative the C&L can be due to the way it meters the air.


How was that Striped? :D

Well

You know I ain't Travis but.....................

:hail2: Pretty dad gum good maf write up Paul :hail2:

I just love hangin with smart peeps :D

Later
Grady
 
ef200098 said:
i love how people who dont have either maf are for pro-m when they have never tried a C&l themselves. i have never tried a pro-m but have never had a problem with a C&L. dont know what the big rucuss is with a pro-m anywho. anyone have any proof as to why or how they are "better" or is just all hearsay?


every single person i know that has a c&l has had their maf gone bad and cause there car to run horrible and not idle after a certain period of time.

i have seen thembe very inconsistant in power and a/f over the years
 
Well, since I couldn't find a Pro-m MAF, I gave up and ordered a C&L today. Sounds like it'll be going on ebay soon :nonono:. Anybody know where to get a Pro-M?

BTW, there's some very good info in this thread! It's good to see this kinda stuff back on stangnet :nice:
 
In the last 11 years I've had a bunch of meters on my car.

C&L 73MM
C&L 76MM
Pro-M 75MM
Lightning 80MM
Pro-M 77M

I didn't dyno all of them but we did do a shootout with C&L's 73MM vs. Pro-M's 75MM (Bullet). Like Paul mentioned is his write up, the C&L just wasn't consistent. The Pro-M 75MM was within 1-2HP on every single run. The C&L was all over the place. I soon realized the importance of electronic calibration vs. a bandaid.

As for the post about who's in business. If you don't know, most businesses that go out are not due to bad products. It's the people who run them.
 
igotyofire said:
what size is the biggest a stock setup would want to run? would 80mm be to big on a stock setup?

One of the nice things about the ProM 80 is its cake to make a home made cai out of three inch pvc.

The ProM 80 would not be too big for a stock Stang but......for a stock Stang, its just not practical for two reasons.

1 the gain would be very small if any.

2 an after market maf caled for 19# inj's is a waste of time & money......just wait until you have sufficient air flow to warrant a maf......THEN......Do the maf & larger inj's at that time. If you had a 19# caled maf you would just have to send it off for a recal thus wasting more money.

Later
Grady
 
final5-0 said:
2 an after market maf caled for 19# inj's is a waste of time & money......just wait until you have sufficient air flow to warrant a maf......THEN......Do the maf & larger inj's at that time. If you had a 19# caled maf you would just have to send it off for a recal thus wasting more money.

Later
Grady
I wish i would have known that before i got mine a long time ago. Now im pegging mine and i have to send it to get recalibrated. oh well