Pistons 92 forged vs. 93 hyper

If someone can prove to me that there's a professional racing body/racing team that employs hyper pistons in real racecars (not some weekend warrior, i'm talking NASCAR, Top Fuel, F1, Cart, WRX...etc) then i'll take back every bad thing i've ever said about those pistons.


Until then my money will go on the forged slugs.
 
lol i've found that no one mustang is ever a like (obviously) REGARDLESS of what year it is. i had a friend that used to have a 91 mass air car with 3.73s, shorties, x pipe and flows, injectors, bigger mass air, throttle body and such...NEVER could break into the 13's. my friend in his SD 88 coupe with 3.73's, h pipe and spintechs ran a 13.7 and would smoke my other friend everytime. then i had another friend that had a SD 88 gt with 3.55's, longtubes, x pipe and flows, and a few other bolt on's running 15's and 16's at the track. something was wrong with that car though, it was just plain slow. :shrug:

Well thats just it! I have driven in the 'borhood of around 15 5.0's and the fastest stock one I ever drove was my '88 SD car. I would smoke cars that I knew a stock car shouldn't at all. Unfortunately I was much younger at the time and didnt take it to the track to get times unfortunately...:( Either way, guess I will never know...
 
i wasn't saying the 93's were slower. i was just helping to explain the reason for the re-rating in 93. and as for the silencer, it was about a 5hp loss, but the silencer is on all cars 87-93 so it affected SD cars as well. all the cars are so close though, that it's not a big difference in performance. the only thing different that affected performance was the cam change. and it was so miniscule that it doesn't really matter. so all in all, the rating in 93 was more accurate for ALL mustangs from 87-93. not the rating in 87.

:nice:

85_SS - Forged are stronger and better for high horsepower applications no doubt. The point is, that they are fine for stock block power applications.
 
Hypereutectic pistons have a silicon base added to them to help with cold start-up, emissions, less heat soaking properties, piston becomes harder, and they are lighter than the forged pistons.

The majority of the material made up in a piston is aluminum, which expands more than steel the hotter it becomes. By adding silicon to the hypereutectic pistons, it helps keep a more solid expansion instead of being dictated by temperature more so, like it's forged counterpart.

With the piston becoming harder, it becomes more brittle and with some severe detonation it is more prone to cracking.

More than likely the block or rods will go first with a good tune, not the hypereutectic pistons.

Forged pistons are melted under a high temperature and pressured with very high pressure to get all the metal alloys compressed together for added strength. The forged pistons are just a bit more cost to the OEM engines and therefore for that reason and the above reasons, the hypereutectic pistons are being used.

There is no truth to the '93 5.0 making 20 hp less than the '87-'92. That was just a marketing ploy.

You honestly sound like your trying to sell yourself on the idea that Hypers, there is one reason "Only" that Ford stop using them and that is Cost!!! If Hypers were so awesome then Ford would have jumped at the chance to use them in the 03 04 Cobras.
 
You honestly sound like your trying to sell yourself on the idea that Hypers, there is one reason "Only" that Ford stop using them and that is Cost!!! If Hypers were so awesome then Ford would have jumped at the chance to use them in the 03 04 Cobras.

Yes, they stopped them due to mainly cost, but it has other advantages to sway Ford that route:nice:

Why would they put hyper pistons in an 03/04 Cobra that is likely to see high boost. They built that bottomend up. Forged can help deflect detonation better than hypers.

Again, the hypers are fine for a stock block combo in the 5.0L.

Those that dislike hypers, dislike good tunes:)

I have forged in my '93.
 
Here is some more info I found out of a Hot Rod article about the piston types:

When buying pistons you will be presented with some material options that you need to know about. Firstly, regular cast pistons are the cheapest option. To make them harder, the aluminum used for regular replacement and earlier-style OEM cast pistons is alloyed with silicon (which is in essence melted sand). The silicon content makes the piston harder and more wear-resistant, but set against this is the increased brittleness. This makes it the least desirable of the type of pistons available to us for performance use. Next on the list is a hypereutectic piston. These started gaining popularity for lower-cost performance applications in Europe back in the mid '70s. In the early '80s, Sealed Power started experimenting with hypereutectic pistons and subsequently introduced a successful line of them. This was followed by Silovolite, who introduced the Keith Black (KB) signature series performance-oriented hypereutectic piston.

Although the term "hypereutectic" is commonly used, it is often not understood. For "hyper - eutectic," read "super - saturated." An alloy that is at the point where no more of the principle alloying element will dissolve in the parent metal is said to be at the eutectic or saturated point.

A regular cast piston can have up to about 10 percent to 11 percent silicon in it. This is about the eutectic point. Any more silicone will put the alloy into the hypereutectic range and as a result, form free crystals of silicon. Normally, these free silicon crystals will cause a reduction in strength, but with suitable heat treatment a hypereutectic alloy can be toughened up to a level above that of a regular cast piston.

In terms of outright strength and toughness, a hypereutectic piston still falls short of a forged piston, but not by as much as the difference in material strength might suggest. The reason for this is that the process of casting a piston, as opposed to forging it, allows the material to be put right where it is needed to support the stresses involved. With a forged piston, the underside has to be designed such that the forging punch can be extracted after the piston blank is formed. It is only by extensive (and costly) post forging machining that a forged piston can rival a cast piston in terms of lightness. By using up some of this low weight advantage by incorporating extra material at strategic points, the cast hypereutectic piston, in practice, comes out looking a lot stouter.

As far as materials for forged pistons are concerned, there are three of note. Probably the most widely used, because it is also used for OE applications, is the Federal Mogul (TRW/Sealed Power division) VMS75 alloy. This was developed probably as far back as the 1960s as a good all-around high-performance alloy for pistons. Most of the rest of the piston industry uses one or both of two alloys, these being 2618 and 4032. The 2618 is most commonly used for outright race pistons as toughness at elevated temperatures (up to about 575* F) is good. On the down side, it lacks the hardness of 4032, which is a high-silicon alloy. Though slightly less tough, the 4032 alloy is a better material for high performance street and race use and would, in most cases, be the alloy of choice for such. At the end of the day, consulting your piston manufacturers about the choice is the way to go, as they are the experts here.
 
:nice:

85_SS - Forged are stronger and better for high horsepower applications no doubt. The point is, that they are fine for stock block power applications.


Yeah i guess you're probably right...still i'd be more comfortable with forged....i mean the pistons might be up to par but there's so many little tuning mishaps that could happen, like bad gas, that could cause detonation and then bye bye piston. I think that's what happened to my buddy's 347 Keith Black pistons...for just a couple hundred more that's good insurance (if you're buying new pistons anyways).
 
FORGED PISTONS ARE THE WAY TO GO ,IF YOU PLAN BLOWER OR TURBO ,NO DOUBT THE FORGED PISTON WILL TAKE THE HEAT AND THE CHEAP HYPERPEUTIC WILL FAIL UNDER ANY KIND OF HIGH BOOST OR HIGH TEMP.FOR A FEW DOLLARS MORE FORGED IS THE WAY TO GO ,BETTER PLATFORM FOR BUILDING HIGH HORSEPOWER ENGINE AND LASTLY THE SKIRTS OF THE PISTON ARE MUCH STRONGER FORGED AND WITH STOKER MOTORS THAT COMES INTO PLAY .

While forged pistons certanly are the way to go if you already intend on a .030 over rebuild, they are not required by any means. Hypereutectic pistons are far stronger than most people give them credit for, and with a proper tune under boost will outlast the stock block. Hell, there have been guys that have split the stock block in half and took the stock rotating assembly (including hyper pistons) that was saved via. a main girdle and transplanted them into another junkyard block and kept on going.
 
Personally I will never build another motor with hyperuetectic pistons! I had a engine that the rod pulled the piston pin out of the bottom of the piston! This was not a 5.0 though.

With a good tune a stock block 5.0 with hyper pistons the block will fail before the pistons however any detonation with forced induction or nitrous could cause the stock piston to break before the block but it's not very common.

I don't buy that forged pistons are heavier than hyper's. The material itself itself is heavier for a forged piston but it is also much thinner. I will say that I haven't weighed them though so this is more opinion than fact.

I am currently about to rering a stock forged piston 5.0 engine to put in my 95 cobra (not for pistons alone the stock engine smokes terribly). I want to put a shot of nitrous on the car later on so this is just peace of mind for me.
 
Forged is more dense.

What kind of piston speed was that piston seeing that the rod pulled the wrist pin out of the bottom of the piston?

I wouldn't blame the piston make-up for that. That is not a common problem in my readings and dealings.

Just looks like a normal post hac fallacy...
 
Forged is more dense.

What kind of piston speed was that piston seeing that the rod pulled the wrist pin out of the bottom of the piston?

I wouldn't blame the piston make-up for that. That is not a common problem in my readings and dealings.

Just looks like a normal post hac fallacy...

It was a .030 over 460 turning 6,000 rpms. I don't know how to calculate piston speed but it had 6.605 rods and a 3.85 stroke if you want to calculate it. They were kieth black pistons. The car was running 6.00's in the 1/8th at 112mph. I just know that the rod didn't fail. This was in a backhalved 91lx coupe with no power adders. I have not ever had a forged piston do this.

I'm not saying that hypuetectic pistons are terrible but I had rather have a forged piston because I have experienced a piston failure before.
 
It was a .030 over 460 turning 6,000 rpms. I don't know how to calculate piston speed but it had 6.605 rods and a 3.85 stroke if you want to calculate it. They were kieth black pistons. The car was running 6.00's in the 1/8th at 112mph. I just know that the rod didn't fail. This was in a backhalved 91lx coupe with no power adders. I have not ever had a forged piston do this.

I'm not saying that hypuetectic pistons are terrible but I had rather have a forged piston because I have experienced a piston failure before.



This is exactly what happened to my buddy's 347 with KB pistons....THREE of them broke a chunk out right by the intake valve relief down the side of the pistons. He never really raced the car either. The engine didn't blow though, he was tearing it down to put new heads on a found it.

Two things i know for sure, i'll never buy a Keith Black piston and i'll never buy a hyper piston for that matter....but to each his own i suppose.
 
It was a .030 over 460 turning 6,000 rpms. I don't know how to calculate piston speed but it had 6.605 rods and a 3.85 stroke if you want to calculate it. They were kieth black pistons. The car was running 6.00's in the 1/8th at 112mph. I just know that the rod didn't fail. This was in a backhalved 91lx coupe with no power adders. I have not ever had a forged piston do this.

I'm not saying that hypuetectic pistons are terrible but I had rather have a forged piston because I have experienced a piston failure before.

In simple terms, if going by 6,000 RPM (formula varies other than that), you can multiply the stroke x rpm.

So 3,850 fps. That is quite quick...

A lighter piston with that type of piston speed becomes more and more ideal as the feet per second goes up. It becomes sort of like a slingshot going back and forth with the weighted end going thru many starts and stops...

But then again I haven't heard 'perfect' things about Keith Black's budget pistons:shrug:
 
I agree 100%

This is just my personal experience and I don't see how anything else could be to blame but the pistons. Unforunatly a rod compleltly detached from the piston makes for some serious damage! The block, two rods, two pistons, cam and one head were tore up pretty badly. It was a aluminium head so atleast that was repairable. It had to be welded up and the combustion chamber had to be reshaped by hand not to mention he valves were bent and the guides were busted. The rod knocked part of the cam through the lifter valley and about two inches of the cam were laying on the ground underneath the car. It came out of the back of the block.
 
In simple terms, if going by 6,000 RPM (formula varies other than that), you can multiply the stroke x rpm.

So 3,850 fps. That is quite quick...

A lighter piston with that type of piston speed becomes more and more ideal as the feet per second goes up. It becomes sort of like a slingshot going back and forth with the weighted end going thru many starts and stops...

But then again I haven't heard 'perfect' things about Keith Black's budget pistons:shrug:


Well not really to contradict you, but i think as far as the aftermarket and racing are concerned, hyper pistons are in fact the budget option. You don't ever see the big engine companies advertising about how fantastic hyper pistons are or whatever attributes they may have (which for the record i do agree they have a lot of things *better* about them when compared to forged, i just don't think strength is one of them and to me that's the #1 thing i'm looking for in a piston).


I think the technology is in the right direction with hypers, i just think it has a little development yet to come.
 
A set of X hyper pistons are not the same as a set of Y hyper pistons.

A set of X forged pistons are not the same as a set of Y forged pistons.

The fact is, if you are planning on big power (past a 5.0L's block potential), you need to look into a forged piston. I think we have already established this.

Again, the stock hyper pistons that come in the '93-'95 5.0L's will outlast the block if you get a proper tune, and keep detonation out of the equation.

Forged pistons have failed on high horsepower applications. So have hypers, of course.

If you build on a budget, expect to repair on a bigger budget:)

If building a big block or something with the potential to have detonation, get a forged piston.