Problems

scantone1

New Member
Jan 4, 2009
11
0
0
Clearwater FL
car wants to start but wont

First off hi im new to this forum and just purchased this car today.

The problem....... I bought the car he couldent get in running. also he just swapped to a 5 speed from the auto just little things that i dont know if they make a diffrence but here is whats happening. I read the wont start thread and this is where i am at

I can get the fuel pump to come on by taping on the relay its weird. Also I have fuel pressure 37 to 40.

in the fuel pump relay all the wires have 12 volts except 1 has 5 is that right?

I just noticed that once i tap the relay everything comes on then as soon as you turn the key to start it the pump shuts off. I dont know why and need some help?????

Why would the relay work when i tap it and why does everything shut off as soon as you turn the key forward to stat position? where do i go from here thanks all:shrug:

I just checked the power to one of the injectors and i have 12 volts with the key turned forward.

also when i have the positive cable off of the battery and take my light to it i put the point on the + termital then to the wire that just came off the terminal going to the box just to the right of it and the light lights up why?

just tryed to start with starting fluid and it wanted to run i dident keep spraying it so it would run but it would if i keep it going.

also the tach when tuning the key on goes up to like 4000 rpm and sits their then goes to like 2000.

hellllp
 
Hi, and Welcome!

Let's start at the beginning:

When you turn the ignition key from off to on (not start), the fuel pump should run for ~5-10 seconds and then shut off because the ECC (computer) doesn't see any RPM signal from the SPOUT signal from the distributor.

Does that happen?

Off hand, it sounds like you have a bad relay and/or wiring. Either way, that should be fixed.

BTW, here's a list of great schematics, thanks to tmoss:



View attachment 280482 For Engine, Fuel Injection, and EEC, see:
Mustang FAQ - Engine Information


View attachment 280484 Awesome color wiring diagram, by TMoss, for the 88-91 Mustang 5.0 Injectors, Sensors, and Actuators:
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
 
Hi, and Welcome!

Let's start at the beginning:

When you turn the ignition key from off to on (not start), the fuel pump should run for ~5-10 seconds and then shut off because the ECC (computer) doesn't see any RPM signal from the SPOUT signal from the distributor.

Does that happen?

Off hand, it sounds like you have a bad relay and/or wiring. Either way, that should be fixed.

BTW, here's a list of great schematics, thanks to tmoss:



View attachment 280390 For Engine, Fuel Injection, and EEC, see:
Mustang FAQ - Engine Information


View attachment 280392 Awesome color wiring diagram, by TMoss, for the 88-91 Mustang 5.0 Injectors, Sensors, and Actuators:
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

when i turn the key from off to on not start the pump will come on half the time if i hit the relay a little. other times it comes on by it self. you can hear the pump running and you can hear what sounds like the fuel cycling back thru the fuel lines (sounds like a hummmm) and the pump will just stay on all day untill you try to start the car then once you start it the pump shuts right off.

Since he changed the trans to a manual could it be the computer?
 
Computer does not matter much from auto to manual. They will work OK with either one. The only real change is the wiring bypassing the neutral safety switch and hook up the clutch safety switch instead. But like Joe said, the pump should come on for a few seconds then stop until you actually crank over the car.

If the pump is running when it shouldn't, the fuel pump relay is sticking for some reason. Mine has done that a couple of times, I stop the car and the pump keeps on going until I pull the relay. Could be a bad relay or the wiring is wrong, or it could even be something with the computer.

Also since the pump stops when you turn the key to start, it could possibly be the ignition switch too. They are known to cause all kinds of electrical problems.

Good luck!
 
Computer does not matter much from auto to manual. They will work OK with either one. The only real change is the wiring bypassing the neutral safety switch and hook up the clutch safety switch instead. But like Joe said, the pump should come on for a few seconds then stop until you actually crank over the car.

If the pump is running when it shouldn't, the fuel pump relay is sticking for some reason. Mine has done that a couple of times, I stop the car and the pump keeps on going until I pull the relay. Could be a bad relay or the wiring is wrong, or it could even be something with the computer.

Also since the pump stops when you turn the key to start, it could possibly be the ignition switch too. They are known to cause all kinds of electrical problems.

Good luck!

How do you do the wire bypass? I looked under the dash and the clutch safety has no connector on it nor could I find on under their that fit it? Could the cluch assembly be from an older car and not work for this year model? Also where is the nuetral safety switch located? I think I found the clutch one it has 1 red green in and 2red green out with a connector in it that is just looped back into the connector could this be the problem?
 
There are no new problems on 5.0 foxes...
Only new owners of the problem...


Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected Mustangs

Revised 14-Sept-2008 to add warning about over fusing circuits
All text applies to all models unless stated otherwise.

Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red

1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch on. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.

No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped
B.) Coil
C.) TFI module
D.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. See paragraph 5A - a noid light will tell if the pip is working by flashing when the engine is cranking.
E.) No ECC or computer power - ECC or computer relay failure
86-93 models only: ECC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires
94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
F.) No ECC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid.
94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire with the switch in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position, then the fuse or fuse link is blown.
Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp fuse
H.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges.
I.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery. It is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire. You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
J.) Computer
K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.

See the following links for wiring diagrams...

AutoZone.com | Vehicle Selection - Year for 79-88 model Mustangs
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 86 model http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80167158.gif
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 87 model http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d8016715e.gif
Ignition wiring diagram, 87 model http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d8016715f.gif
Computer/fuel pump wiring diagram, 88 model http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80167162.gif[
Ignition wiring diagram, 88 model http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80167163.gif

AutoZone.com | Vehicle Selection - Year for 89-93 model Mustangs
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 89-90 cars http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d8019595f.gif
Computer/fuel pump/ignition wiring diagram, 91-93 cars
http://www.autozone.com/images/cds/gif/large/0900823d80195960.gif

http://www.autozone.com/servlet/UiBroker?ForwardPage=/az/cds/en_us/0900823d/80/1d/db/3c/0900823d801ddb3c.jsp for 94-98 model cars

2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:

A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil

3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.

Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.

Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 5-20 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the EEC test connector and jump the connector in the Upper RH corner to ground. The EEC connector is near the wiper motor and LH hood hinge.
attachment.php


If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In a pinch, you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have. If you have any doubts about having sufficient fuel flow/pressure, rent a fuel pressure test gauge from the auto parts store. That will tell you for sure if you have adequate fuel pressure.


4.) No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) 86-90 models only: Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay.
91-93 models only Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
The fuse links for all model years 86-93 live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.
94-95 models only: 20 amp fuel pump fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the Dark green/yellow wire on the constant control relay module.
F.) Engine seem to load up on fuel and may have black smoke at the tailpipe. Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while the pump is running. If fuel is coming out the vacuum port, the regulator has failed. Check the regulator vacuum line for fuel too. Disconnect it from the engine and blow air though it. If you find gas, the regulator has failed.

5.) Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
A.) A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the injector wiring.
The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and it will flash if the injector is firing.
B.) I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
D.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
E.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).
F.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the ECC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
G.) TPS voltage exceeds 3.7 volts with the throttle closed. This will shut off the injectors, since the computer uses this strategy to clear a flooded engine. Use a DVM, a pair of safety pins, and probe the black/white and green wires to measure the TPS voltage.
On a 94-95 Mustang, probe the black/white and grey/white wires to measure the TPS voltage.
It should be .5-.99 volts with the key on, engine not running. Note that if the black/white wire (signal ground) has a bad connection, you will get some strange readings. Make a second measurement using the battery post as the ground to eliminate any ground problems. If the readings are different by more than 5%, you may have a high resistance condition in the black/white signal ground circuit.

6.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
A.) Failed IAB or improperly set base idle (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car. See the "Surging Idle Checklist for help with all your idle/stall problems.
B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently).
D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.
F. ) Engine that has had the heads off or valves adjusted. Do a compression test to make sure the valves are not adjusted too tight. You should have a minimum of 90 PSI on a cold engine.
 
ok I hve checked and rechecked everything here is what i have come up with.


Their was a bad ground to the fuel pump relay. So from the computer I went to pin 22 light gren orange and taped in to it and went o ground. This took care of the pump not comming on some times an shutting off when i turned to key on.

I checked spark form coil, and plug all nice blue.

the tps sensor i got .4 with it closed {cheeper meter}

Checked the injector red wire and have 12 to 11 volts.

checked the firing order that was wrong he had 4 and 7 backward.

I replaced the ecc relay

I replaced the fuel pump relay

I replaced the ingnition control under the dash.

fired up on starting fluid ran great.

Could it have something to do with it use to be an auto and i have the clutch safety bypassed and cant find the auto safety to by pass.

The pump just keeps running and wont shut off and wont fire over why? Is it the computer? Any ideas and thanks for the great check list.
 
ok I hve checked and rechecked everything here is what i have come up with.


Their was a bad ground to the fuel pump relay. So from the computer I went to pin 22 light gren orange and taped in to it and went o ground. This took care of the pump not comming on some times an shutting off when i turned to key on.

I checked spark form coil, and plug all nice blue.

the tps sensor i got .4 with it closed {cheeper meter}

Checked the injector red wire and have 12 to 11 volts.

checked the firing order that was wrong he had 4 and 7 backward.

I replaced the ecc relay

I replaced the fuel pump relay

I replaced the ingnition control under the dash.

The pump just keeps running and wont shut off and wont fire over why? Is it the computer? Any ideas and thanks for the great check list.

If the pump keeps running with the key on, it's because you created a constant ground to the FP relay coil.

Did you confirm injector pulsing?

Once you get it running, you might set a TPS code. 0.4 is a bit low for a baseline.
 
If the pump keeps running with the key on, it's because you created a constant ground to the FP relay coil.

Did you confirm injector pulsing?

Once you get it running, you might set a TPS code. 0.4 is a bit low for a baseline.

How did it have a constant ground? All I did was tap into the wire that ooooooooo I see with the ground to the body!

So that would meen its the computer that is bad?

No i dident do that I dont have a tester is their another way?
 
No 12 volts on injector red wire or no pulse from PIP sensor in the distributor. A failing PIP sensor will also cause you not to have any spark at the coil high voltage wire.

You seem to be a liitle lost, so here's some help...

Here's a book that will get you started with how the Ford electronic engine control or "computer" works.

Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control 1988-1993 by Charles Probst :ISBN 0-8376-0301-3.

It's about $25-$35 from Borders.com see http://www.amazon.com/ . Select boo...very good, and I found it to be very helpful.
 
I have spark at the high voltage coil wire if you mean the one coming off the coil going to the distributor and I have 12 volts at the red injector wire.

Thats whats driving me nuts its like the injectors just wont open. I am going to try testing the tps sensor more tomorrow before i buy a computer. I have found your info very informative.
 
Did You Swap out the computer? From a manual to auto?

No i just order a a9l for it so that will be here in a few days it had a auto in it befor and now its a manual.

I just tried this.....Keep in mind that the computer only runs the fuel pump for about 2-3 seconds when you turn
the key to the Run position. This can sometimes fool you into thinking the computer has died.
Connect one lead of the test light to power and the other lead to computer pin 22 with a safety pin.
With the ignition switch Off, jumper the computer into self test mode like you are going to dump
the codes. Turn the ignition switch to the Run position. The light will flicker when the computer
does the self test routine. A flickering light is a good computer. No flickering light is a bad computer.
Remove the test jumper from the ECC test connector located under the hood.

And my test light stayed solid no flicker but it was on I might be doing it wrong so I will try again later unless it not suppose to stay solid. dosent say.
 
I went over the computer check agian to try and get some codes dumped and nothing. Here is what I did
1. took a jumper wire to the second pin on the top of the ecc test port then to the single connector
2. hooked up a test light and went to the 22 port on the ecc tester and to battery positive lead.
3. turned key to run position and all i get is a single solid light no flicker.
4. did it again and watched the check engine light same just stays on till i release the key from the run position.
So now im stuck and dont know what to do my computer wont be here for a few days and i just want to know if i am right by replacing it or did i wast some cash?