Rebuilding T-5, output snap ring won't fit!

[spoulson]

I'm in a rebuild of my car's T-5 transmission where I'm just freshing it up as well as putting in a new 1/2 slider and reverse idler. Everything else checked out ok.

During reassembly, the output shaft is giving me trouble trying to fit the snap ring on the 5th speed driven gear. Has anybody figured out what could cause this?

I've pulled it apart and pressed back together 5 times. I even tried putting the old bearing on incase the new one had sizing issues. No change. There seems to be 20-30 thousandths short of enough room for the clip to fit. See the attached pic.

Not sure what I can do at this point. Ideas?

 

[Mustang5L5]

Post a pic of the rest of the "stack".

Which parts are actually new from the 1-2 slider back?

Make sure that snap ring is not stretched. Sometimes, after rebuilds, the snap ring stretched from constant assembly/disassembly and causes it to pop off and 5th gear to slide off. Common problem. If you've really assembled and reassembled that many times, it could be stretched.

Here's my setup, the snap ring does barely squeeze in there

 

[spoulson]

The new parts are:
- 1/2 slider
- keys/springs in 1/2 and 3/4 hub
- rear roller bearing
- 2nd/3rd needle bearings (1st bearing wasn't included in FRPP kit, apparently due to price gouging by Tremec -- $32!)
- all synchro rings
- snap ring and spiral lock

Your pics are consistent with fitment before I disassembled the shaft. I can see how the snap ring can stretch, but it doesn't seem like that's the issue. I try to fit it in the groove from the outside and that fails as well. Just not enough room.

 

[spoulson]

Update: I feel like I've tried every combination so far. Finally, I stripped down the shaft and put on as few parts as possible to press on the gear. So here, I pressed on only the 1st speed gear race, rear roller bearing, and the 5th speed gear. I left out the 1st speed gear, synchro rings, and even that locating pin behind the gear race. I also used only old parts to eliminate changes. Still, fitment of the snap ring is no different!

View attachment 194855 View attachment 194856

Just to point out, left is new snap ring, right is old snap ring. Neither will fit in the groove.
View attachment 194857

I can think of only one thing that could have changed. When disassembling the shaft, I took off the 5th gear while the shaft was still in the case. Looking back, I could have just removed the shaft from the case and used the press. But instead I broke out the propane torch and heated it up while turning the shaft to evenly heat it until I was able to slide it off with a pry bar, about a minute or two of on/off heating. Could I have permanently changed the gear from heat?

 

[90_Red_LX]

What is the ground width of the snap ring slot compared to your snap ring? Take the two measurements and see what you get. At a a glance, your mainshaft stackup doesn't look bad. I'll take a closer look tomorrow. Just be patient; many t5's I have screwed up from wanting it done quick.

EDIT: Also, no doubtful you will have hurt the 5th gear, even if you did turn it red hot. My standard disassembly usually involves removing the 5th gear on the output shaft before yanking the output shaft itself. For extra clearance on removal, the primary reason. I also start with a screwdriver/prybar, and removed it off the splines that way. As long as you are not aggressive you won't mess it up.

EDIT: EDIT: Try tapping the snap ring in place with a soft face hammer and flat screwdriver. See if it will fall into the groove. If not, like said above check thickness all around the ring for warpage. I had that gear pop out from me coming home from the beach one summer. 150+ miles in 4th gear. Fun, fun.

 

[Mustang5L5]

Is the mainshaft bearing on the end new? Do you have the old one? If you do, try swapping the old one back on to see if it slides homes then.

I have a box of misc t5 parts and can measure various lengths. Can you measure 5th gear length? Do you have a set of measuring calipers?

Edit:

5th gear length: 1.4400"
Snap ring width: .0825"

 

[MFE92]

I have had this happen to me too, and for the life of me I can't remember what the problem was, so I'm not much help at the moment, but I assure you it has nothing to do with the parts. Something isn't assembled right.

 

[spoulson]

Thanks. I've tried both old and new roller bearings and there's no difference in clearance. I measured the old and new snap ring thickness with calipers and they're identical.

I did try unsuccessfully tapping the clip in, but maybe I wasn't pounding it hard enough. I really expected it to just fall in like the other snap ring that holds 2nd gear on.

 

[MFE92]

When it's all assembled correctly, you will not have to force the clip into place at all. Put another way, if you have to force it or modify it, something is wrong somewhere upstream.

See if page 6-5 here helps http://www.ttcautomotive.com/english/media/pdfs_autogen/T-5_Service_Manual.pdf

 

[spoulson]

Thanks for all the tips everybody. I finally figured out what I did and it's a total noob mistake.

I used the wrong snap ring. I put the skinny snap ring on the 2nd gear and expected to put the thick snap ring on 5th gear, when it should've been the other way around. Once I realized this, the correct snap rings dropped into their respective places with no struggle.

 

[Mustang5L5]

Glad you got it figured out.

 

[pancake_repairman]

Hi guys,

Great thread. Do you mind me asking what would happen if the 5th snap ring were to pop over it's shoulder while driving?

I rebuilt my first T5 a few months ago but it just started to pop out of 5th when I roll off the gas. I've tried to hold it in (just for curiosity) but I can feel the weight of the car pushing it out of gear...

 

[Mustang5L5]

Hi guys,

Great thread. Do you mind me asking what would happen if the 5th snap ring were to pop over it's shoulder while driving?
..

Under load, 5th gear driven gear (the small one) would slide down the shaft until it wasn't making contact with the drive gear. You'd basically have no 5th....nothing. The synchro would move and engage the larger drive gear, but there would be nothing for it to push against.

 

[rbohm]

Thanks for all the tips everybody. I finally figured out what I did and it's a total noob mistake.

I used the wrong snap ring. I put the skinny snap ring on the 2nd gear and expected to put the thick snap ring on 5th gear, when it should've been the other way around. Once I realized this, the correct snap rings dropped into their respective places with no struggle.

that was going to be my suggestion, check to make sure you have the right part in the right place. glad to see you figured it out.

 

[90sickfox]

Sounds like a detent spring problem...the detent spring hold pressure on the little rectangle locks...if it doesn't lock the shifter in 5th it'll want to jump out of gear.

 

[pancake_repairman]

Thanks everyone.

I know exactly what you you're talking about. The large shaped spring with a hook on one end must have let go of the three tabs and they fell into the pan... I hope. Looks like I've got to pull 'er apart. Live and learn.

Thanks for the info!

 

[pancake_repairman]

Sorry. This is turning into a hijack...

I just had a peek at my diagram. It seems there's a chance I only need to take off the tail housing to fix 5th... am I right?

 

[90sickfox]

Best way is to pull the trans...you can leave the bell housing and clutch connected.

 

[Mustang5L5]

You only need to take off the tailhousing, but good luck doing that installed in a car. It's much easier to yank the entire trans