Spark Plugs, Beam Torque Wrench?

[Gearbanger 101]

I can't believe you posted saying "I can't believe this thread has gone nearly 40-posts..." What's YOUR point?

My point is that some of you guys are literally at one and other’s throats arguing about something so trivial. Some guys are sticklers for accuracy and want to torque their plugs in...other guys want to do it by feel. Barring that, I really can’t see why some of you guys are getting so uptight about what the other guy is doing with their car.....and going through great lengths with detailed posts just to prove the other guy wrong on top of that. Get a hobby!

 

[Jbauer]

i dont trust torque wrenches on plugs.

 

[wmburns]

2005+ 3V spark plug removal

Reply to Twogtsrus:

Regarding the price I paid for my torque wrench, about $60. After all, I have had it for 20+ years. I used the current product for example purposes. There was another poster that doubted there was an affordable torque wrench with enough accuracy..

Regarding the spark plugs in a 2005+ 3 valve. It is a well known problem. The design of the plugs has very long tip beyond the threads. Over time, the tip galls to the head. If more than 35 foot pounds of force are used during the removal, the tip will shear from the insulator/nut. This will leave the bottom half of the plug firmly galled inside the head. Obviously a huge problem.

The Ford TSB calls for limiting the torque to 35 foot pounds. If more torque is needed, penetrating lubricant must be used. Take the plug out in increments. ¼ turn out. 1/8 turn in. All the while not exceeding 35 foot pounds.

The 2005+ 3V engines also need a special nickel based anti-seize to be used on the tip to lessen future galling.

For the record, I use a torque wrench. I work on cars for a hobby. I HATE re-doing a job. Would rather do it right one time the 1st time.

And yes it is amazing there are so many posts in this thread.

 

[Mike97gt]

the issue I have with torque wrenches? It's a big ass breaker bar. You have no idea of the stress you're putting on things when you use it. Oh sure, you have a number you are pretty sure this bolt needs. But what happens when you apply foot-pounds and the spec calls for inch-pounds? Or you read 125 ft-lbs. but that is for another fastener and the one you are on needs 65 ft-lbs? You are two feet removed at least from feeling the stress on the part, so breaking bolts is easy. You'd know to stop if you relied on feel, but since the torque wrench hasn't clicked, you keep leaning on it until it snaps.

And at the end of the day, you don't know how tight it is, you only know your torque wrench clicked or slipped. You were at the end of a breaker bar, so your concept of how tight it is might as well come from Mars. I'd rather have a tactile feeling of how much pressure I put on things. At least then I know it is tight or loose or whatever. I am not a monkey, so I can tighten things just past snug, or lean on it, or just bring it to the seat. On the end of a breaker bar, I won't know if it is seated until the bolt snaps.

Would you feel better if your engine ejected a plug but you "torqued it to spec"? Or would tightening it by hand so it is snug using a regular ratchet give you peace of mind? I know where I stand. I'm not going to rely on a torque wrench to tell me my lug nuts are tight. You mileage may vary. If my wheel falls off, I'm not going to make it better by saying "but I used a torque wrench!?!"

Torque numbers are just numbers. Kind of like tightening sequence. If you can't look at a part and guess the sequence, you *need* the instructions. But it should be obvious. Engineers aren't geniuses, they just study and break parts and try again. Sometimes they only write instructions after someone breaks parts. The average person can grasp what is required with a bit of thought and a modicum of experience. Tightening sequences and torque specs are written for the idiot quotient. An idiot is someone who can't figure out how to tighten a wheel, or reads the instructions on how to tighten a wheel and doesn't figure out that a head should probably be tightened the same way.

Most people aren't idiots. Just don't tighten everything to German "gooden'tight" specs irrespective of the part. That's just stupid. Plugs only need to be snug. Wheel lugs need to be tight, but only arm tight, not body-weight tight. And not gorilla-arm tight. Check and re-tighten lugs after driving a mile or so. Check plugs the next time you change your oil just to be smart, but use your fingers. If your fingers can move them, get out the wrench, but not before. And grab it around the socket, not at the end. You DO NOT want to break a plug off in your head, or strip the head.

Seriously, you should be able to interpret torque specs into "arm calibration." I understand if you work at shop why you rely on the tool. But even in shops there are gorillas who break bolts, strip drain plugs, and generally make a mess even with torque wrenches. They're the guys telling you that you have stripped wheel studs or need to replace head bolts after an oil change. Obviously torque wrenches don't solve the world's problems :/

All that said, perhaps I'm not typical. I'm not the kind of person to say I have skills you can't learn. But what do I know? Some people have perfect pitch. Is it possible for a person to have perfect torque? (I'm not saying I do. I'm just saying perhaps I'm naive and know things I don't even know I know)

And for the record, Honda's S2000 is known to eject the #4 plug. Same issue, but Honda blames the customer rather than re-spec the part or fix the problem. Think of that before you blast Ford. At least they suggest a different plug.

I'm not disputing the posts before me. They provide good info, and are coming from intelligent people with real world experience. I'm just saying that torque wrenches are not a panacea. They provide "scientific" torque used correctly. But the kicker is the "used correctly" thing. Often you are better off not using one than risking using one incorrectly in your driveway. And truth be told, even "torque to yield" head bolts can be tightened properly without one.

As I said before the backyard hobbyist does not have the experience to know what is the right amount of torque to apply..


Nobody should be torquing down spark plugs with a 1/2 inch torque wrench.. Nobody would do that.. a 3/8's torque wrench is not long enough for a novice to get in trouble with.

If somebody can't read good enough to tell inch pounds from foot pounds or to set the wrench right then that's their fault.. torque wrench is still the proper way to do it even if the user is retarded.


BTW I strongly disagree with TTYL bolts being torqued down out of sequence and intended spec.. the instructions for those type of bolts have to be followed exactly or they can fail.. I have seen them fail before.


and the problem in shops is nobody uses the torque wrenches.. In my dealer I am the only guy who torques a flywheel and clutch to spec.. the other guys said I was wasting my time and running them down with a impact gun is good enough.. This is the reason my clutches don't chatter and theirs do.


I work with guys who never measure ANYTHING... this is how shops are, nobody does it right.


LOL I have seen guys not measure when doing a crank and bearings.. that is SCARY

 

[twogts4us]

Reply to Twogtsrus:

Regarding the price I paid for my torque wrench, about $60. After all, I have had it for 20+ years. I used the current product for example purposes. There was another poster that doubted there was an affordable torque wrench with enough accuracy..

Regarding the spark plugs in a 2005+ 3 valve. It is a well known problem. The design of the plugs has very long tip beyond the threads. Over time, the tip galls to the head. If more than 35 foot pounds of force are used during the removal, the tip will shear from the insulator/nut. This will leave the bottom half of the plug firmly galled inside the head. Obviously a huge problem.

The Ford TSB calls for limiting the torque to 35 foot pounds. If more torque is needed, penetrating lubricant must be used. Take the plug out in increments. ¼ turn out. 1/8 turn in. All the while not exceeding 35 foot pounds.

The 2005+ 3V engines also need a special nickel based anti-seize to be used on the tip to lessen future galling.

For the record, I use a torque wrench. I work on cars for a hobby. I HATE re-doing a job. Would rather do it right one time the 1st time.

And yes it is amazing there are so many posts in this thread.

Interesting, thanks for the post.
It's funny that Ford 'oops I did it again' with a plug problem after the issues with the 2V engine. You would have thought those 'genius engineers' would have used all that knowledge in their brains to sort this issue out before going into production.

 

[trinity_gt]

Interesting, thanks for the post.
It's funny that Ford 'oops I did it again' with a plug problem after the issues with the 2V engine. You would have thought those 'genius engineers' would have used all that knowledge in their brains to sort this issue out before going into production.

The problem is the plugs, not the heads.

I don't see how this negates the use of torque wrenches for critical fasteners and plugs.

Q: How would the goodntite crowd know they were at or over the 35 ft-lb limit for the 3V plugs before stopping what they were doing and using penetrant?

 

[twogts4us]

35 ft lbs is fairly tight. I would think the goodntites would use the same built in meter they already own - their arm, their wrench and a good feel for what they are doing. Still, I hear your point. And as I said previously, some people should not pick up a tool for any reason as they have no mechanical aptitude. The rest of us goodntites practice at our own risk and if we f it up we have nobody to blame but ourselves...understood.
I just don't think it's as critical (to be spot on with exactly XX inch/lbs of torque) as some of you are making it out to be. I do understand that the issue is magnified by the use of aluminum heads, but I've been turning wrenches since circa 1980. I have a good feel for what is too tight, what is too loose, and what is (close enough to being) just right. I've never had an issue with any plugs I've removed or installed.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Interesting, thanks for the post.
It's funny that Ford 'oops I did it again' with a plug problem after the issues with the 2V engine. You would have thought those 'genius engineers' would have used all that knowledge in their brains to sort this issue out before going into production.

As stated above....the issue with the 3V isn't the heads, but the plugs themselves. They're built using a crappy two piece design. The anti-seize compound is applied to the "shank" area of the plug, between the threads and the electrode, not the threads themselves.

Without it, the shank ceases up within the head and the spark plug 9/10 times breaks off. I've heard of guys taking 8-hours to do a spark plug change.

 

[40oz]

As I said before the backyard hobbyist does not have the experience to know what is the right amount of torque to apply..


Nobody should be torquing down spark plugs with a 1/2 inch torque wrench.. Nobody would do that.. a 3/8's torque wrench is not long enough for a novice to get in trouble with.

If somebody can't read good enough to tell inch pounds from foot pounds or to set the wrench right then that's their fault.. torque wrench is still the proper way to do it even if the user is retarded.


BTW I strongly disagree with TTYL bolts being torqued down out of sequence and intended spec.. the instructions for those type of bolts have to be followed exactly or they can fail.. I have seen them fail before.


and the problem in shops is nobody uses the torque wrenches.. In my dealer I am the only guy who torques a flywheel and clutch to spec.. the other guys said I was wasting my time and running them down with a impact gun is good enough.. This is the reason my clutches don't chatter and theirs do.


I work with guys who never measure ANYTHING... this is how shops are, nobody does it right.


LOL I have seen guys not measure when doing a crank and bearings.. that is SCARY

We agree in general. I don't suggest people use a foot and a half breaker bar on every nut and bolt, and neither do you. But for most people, "torque wrench" means just that.

I also don't suggest people use an impact gun on every nut and bolt. Same issue, maybe worse.

I am certainly not suggesting you change the way you do things. That's the opposite of what I think.

 

[Dragstr05]

The problem is that the 2V 4.6L engine has a proven track record of spark plug blow-outs if the plugs are not properly torqued. It's really that simple. Without a torque wrench, you're guessing and that can lead to an expensive and inconvenient repair later, all in the name of saving 20-seconds a plug. Given how easy the things are to access, it makes no sense to take short cuts like this.

No need, I have a calibrated arm

In all seriousness, when I did replace my first set, I did torque them. Only to find out I would have applied the same pressure without the torque wrench anyway. I am one of those "do this for a living guys", and I do know what a tight plug feels like. I venture to guess that more than likely, the plugs blow out from PEOPLE NOT TIGHTENING THEM ENOUGH. Thus, the torque wrench would be necessary for those who havent done it enough to have the right feel.

The latest event to grace my household involved my wife's Mazda6. She complained the car was "making noise in the front." We took it for a quick drive and I suggested we checked the passenger side front wheel bearing. When I got it off the ground, I immediately noticed every lugnut on the wheel was loose and the wheel was moving on the hub 1/16" by hand. I pulled out the torque wrench (yes, a torque wrench) and checked all the lugs on the car: of course every lug on that wheel was loose but there was a remarkable difference in the tightness of every other lug on the car. Some were fine but many were in various states of needing more than 1/4-turn to reach the proper torque. The car had just been in for service at the local dealership and they'd "serviced" the brakes. In other words, the very people that do this for a living put my wife's life at increased risk because someone just couldn't take the time to do the job right.

This is unfortunate. Now no, I do not use a torque wrench, but I do use torque sticks. Are they perfect? No, but with the consistant line pressure our shop has, and with my gun set they are torqued maybe 5-10 lbs high. I cannot stand watching the guys that use nothing at all. It's way too easy to go way overboard, or not enough. Eventually, making them too tight really tears up the studs.

 

[trinity_gt]

This is unfortunate. Now no, I do not use a torque wrench, but I do use torque sticks. Are they perfect? No, but with the consistant line pressure our shop has, and with my gun set they are torqued maybe 5-10 lbs high. I cannot stand watching the guys that use nothing at all. It's way too easy to go way overboard, or not enough. Eventually, making them too tight really tears up the studs.

For large fasteners with multiple redundancy like lugs, a torque stick would be fine. As you say, it's the guys just using a 400ftlb impact gun to drill them down -- or not -- that are the problem. As well, the use of proper tools and the act of having to go to a tool chest specifically for a given tool, IMO, might actually help a tech stay focused on what he's doing in addition to ensuring that the fasteners are correctly tightened.

 

[patman0911]

...This is unfortunate. Now no, I do not use a torque wrench, but I do use torque sticks. Are they perfect? No, but with the consistant line pressure our shop has, and with my gun set they are torqued maybe 5-10 lbs high. I cannot stand watching the guys that use nothing at all. It's way too easy to go way overboard, or not enough. Eventually, making them too tight really tears up the studs.

...and cause the studs to pop while you're driving down the road. I've seen that happen too. Not to mention making it impossible to change the tire on the side of the road when the lug nuts are torqued down so much that I'm jumping up & down on the end of a tire iron trying to break them loose.


I too am amazed that there is this much opposition to using a torque wrench. If you guys think you're arm is calibrated to 14 ft-lbs or whatever, then fine, go right ahead - it's probably not as accurate as you think but maybe it's close enough. However, I don't understand how anyone can actually recommend against using a torque wrench. If the argument is that because they're are people who will somehow screw up using a torque wrench, well, you really shouldn't be working on these cars yourself if you can't properly operate a freaking torque wrench.

You really need a torque wrench - at least one calibrated in ft-lbs and a smaller one in inch-lbs - to work on anything built in the last 20 years. It was different when everything had iron blocks and iron heads and iron intake manifolds and cork gaskets that were gonna leak after a while anyway no matter what you did. You could just torque a bolt down until you couldn't turn it anymore or it felt like it was going to break and it worked - you'd have a hard time stripping any threads and if you couldn't get it back out the next time, just put a big breaker bar on it and start hammering away.

Mustangs (V-8s at least) have come with aluminum heads for 14 years now but just because they're stock production pieces, it doesn't mean you can still treat aluminum with the same reckless abandon that you could iron. There's also plastic and composite materials that must be treated differently - bolt tightening sequences and multi-step torquing sequences that must be followed to get a proper sealing surface. Now you've got these multi-piece spark-plugs in the 3Vs that have a torque spec for loosening them!

The trade off for all this is you can still get a romping V-8 in a Mustang but one with decent gas mileage, one that meets emission standards and one that will essentially go 100K without a tuneup and will last 200K+ and doesn't start leaving puddles of vital fluids all over your driveway after couple of years. But, you have to take just a little bit of extra care when putting things back together.

Seriously though, I pulled all my plugs two nights ago chasing a misfire and using a torque wrench to reinstall them added all of zero time and hassle and I can be reasonably confident that they're tight enough to stay in the head and not so tight that I've compromised the threads in the head.

 

[trinity_gt]

Yeah. I get that some people think they're so good and their time is so valuable that they don't need to use a torque wrench. I just can't believe they're here recommending that others-- noobs and otherwise -- do the same thing.

By now both sides have made their case and the inexperienced can make an informed choice and do the work right.

 

[twogts4us]

I don't understand how anyone can actually recommend against using a torque wrench.

Where did you see anyone recommending against using a torque wrench?

If the argument is that because they're are people who will somehow screw up using a torque wrench, well, you really shouldn't be working on these cars yourself if you can't properly operate a freaking torque wrench.

As I stated earlier, some people shouldn't be working on cars at all - I absolutely agree...

You really need a torque wrench - at least one calibrated in ft-lbs and a smaller one in inch-lbs - to work on anything built in the last 20 years. It was different when everything had iron blocks and iron heads and iron intake manifolds and cork gaskets that were gonna leak after a while anyway no matter what you did. You could just torque a bolt down until you couldn't turn it anymore or it felt like it was going to break and it worked - you'd have a hard time stripping any threads and if you couldn't get it back out the next time, just put a big breaker bar on it and start hammering away.

Really? So besides spark plugs, what else do you use your torque wrenches for? And is your preferred method for all other parts of your car that are not aluminum to simply "torque a bolt down until you couldn't turn it anymore or it felt like it was going to break"? Or is that only for non-Mustangs or cars older than 20 years? You think that is OK as long as it's not aluminum, not a Mustang or 20 years or more old?

I just can't believe they're here recommending that others-- noobs and otherwise -- do the same thing.

Again, where did you see someone recommending against the use of a torque wrench? Granted, if you can't operate the tool, don't use it, but come on...nobody here said don't use one...we just said it's unnecessary.

By now both sides have made their case and the inexperienced can make an informed choice and do the work right.

The inexperienced can make an informed choice and do the work right? WTF? Oh God, should we all bow down to the master(s)? May all the inexperienced village idiots follow you...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Where did you see anyone recommending against using a torque wrench?

+1 quit putting words in people's mouths no one EVER said NOT to use one.

The inexperienced can make an informed choice and do the work right? WTF? Oh God, should we all bow down to the master(s)? May all the inexperienced village idiots follow you...

 

[patman0911]

Where did you see anyone recommending against using a torque wrench?

40oz had a whole diatribe against torque wrenches on the last page and you agreed with it a couple of post later. He may not have meant that as "don't use a torque wrench" and maybe you don't read it that way but somebody new to the hobby is going to see stuff like that and think, "Oh, I'd better not use a torque wrench, I might mess up my car!" or they're going to think, "Man, a torque wrench is, like, $40... do I really need one? Nah, I can just go by feel - twogts4us on StangNet has 3700 post and he says it's OK"

The problem is, the only ways you can truly calibrate your arm and be able to do it by feel is through lots of experience with a torque wrench or lots of experience messing up parts by under and over-torquing bolts until you finally get a feel for it.

Really? So besides spark plugs, what else do you use your torque wrenches for?

Really? So you think spark plugs are all that they're used for? Let's see, they've come in handy for a cam swap and a couple intake manifolds and/or gasket replacements and timing belt replacements and clutch jobs and engine replacements and a few half-shaft replacements and probably a bunch of other jobs I've performed in my driveway that I've forgotten about spanning many cars and years.

And is your preferred method for all other parts of your car that are not aluminum to simply "torque a bolt down until you couldn't turn it anymore or it felt like it was going to break"? Or is that only for non-Mustangs or cars older than 20 years? You think that is OK as long as it's not aluminum, not a Mustang or 20 years or more old?

No, that is not my preferred method for anything - that's just what people did for a long time and for the most part, they could get away with it as long as it wasn't something with a critical bearing surface. Unfortunately, some of that culture of "just go by feel" continue on today even though cars are much different and it's not appropriate for the materials they're made out of now. 20 years is a somewhat arbitrary cutoff - there were some dinosaurs that made it into production on into the 90's and there were certainly some high-tech cars built more along modern standards in the 70s and 80s - but it's good enough for the purposes of this discussion.

Again, where did you see someone recommending against the use of a torque wrench? Granted, if you can't operate the tool, don't use it, but come on...nobody here said don't use one...we just said it's unnecessary.

Unnecessary for some people (who are very experienced and know what they are doing and when they can get away with it). Most everyone else should be using them and in the case of the heads with reduced spark plug hole thread count and 3V heads with the 2-piece spark plugs where plug blow out and stripping and seizing are known issues, it seems to me that everyone should be using them and following the correct procedures even more carefully.

The inexperienced can make an informed choice and do the work right? WTF? Oh God, should we all bow down to the master(s)? May all the inexperienced village idiots follow you...

Yes, hopefully they will start out doing things the right way with the correct tools and following the recommended procedures until they've got enough knowledge and experience to decide when and where shortcuts are safe. I see way too many new automotive enthusiasts with very little DIY car maintenance and repair experience on this board to be throwing around arguments like you don't need a torque wrench with out a lot more qualification of that statement so that those newbies don't start out making potentially costly mistakes.

 

[40oz]

In my personal opinion, a torque wrench is an advanced tool. It's not the first tool a person should buy for working on a car, anymore than an impact wrench should be. It's a tool a person buys when they are moving beyond changing the oil and plugs and the occasional tire.

Some people insist on leaving EVERYTHING to professionals, including changing a tire on the side of the road. That's their call. Other people derive a degree of pleasure in doing the work themselves. It is not rational to categorically claim that non-professionals do inferior work, or that professionals do superior work. But you find those who refuse to so much as tighten a lug nut sincerely believe only and all "professionals" are qualified to work on a car, and anyone not currently employed in that capacity should not touch the things.

We have several posts in this thread that suggest the difference between "professionals" and amateurs is simply the paycheck. It certainly isn't the use of a torque wrench. Is it remotely possible there is more than one valid position here? I don't use a torque wrench, but would prefer to have my car serviced by a tech who knows how and when to use one. I'll leave it up to them to decide when to use it. I don't find that a contradiction. YMMV.

 

[Dragstr05]

I too am amazed that there is this much opposition to using a torque wrench. If you guys think you're arm is calibrated to 14 ft-lbs or whatever, then fine, go right ahead - it's probably not as accurate as you think but maybe it's close enough. However, I don't understand how anyone can actually recommend against using a torque wrench. If the argument is that because they're are people who will somehow screw up using a torque wrench, well, you really shouldn't be working on these cars yourself if you can't properly operate a freaking torque wrench.

You really need a torque wrench - at least one calibrated in ft-lbs and a smaller one in inch-lbs - to work on anything built in the last 20 years. It was different when everything had iron blocks and iron heads and iron intake manifolds and cork gaskets that were gonna leak after a while anyway no matter what you did. You could just torque a bolt down until you couldn't turn it anymore or it felt like it was going to break and it worked - you'd have a hard time stripping any threads and if you couldn't get it back out the next time, just put a big breaker bar on it and start hammering away.

From a professional standpoint, a torque wrench is needed when the job calls for it. There is a torque spec for every damn nut and bolt on a car, but how many people do you see yanking out a torque wrench to tighten a drain plug after an oil change? There are things that I will use a torque wrench for, no matter how many times I have done it, because it is a necessity to the operation of that component. I also know what my tools can do, and make judgement accordingly.

 

[gt03gt93]

Thanks to everyone for the replies to my question. CLEARLY, the PRO-TORQUE-WRENCH guys present the most convincing arguement in behalf of the debate. It would keep me up at night worrying that one of the non-torque wrench guys here were working on my car. But thanks anyways to you guys as well.