still backfiring...

[aar0s]

last week (maybe two weeks ago, cant remember) I pulled codes for the egr and tps, 25 and 63 i think. I looked but i cant find that thread on here. I checked for the 5 volt vref on each and found it on both. I dont have a vac pump to check the vacuum on the egr but i did have another tps. put that on tonight and set it at .9 (like 4.3 at wot).
symptoms are a slight miss and backfire when i feather the gas at a cruse and a pinging from the exhaust that sounds like fuel burning off in the mufflers
Tomorrow im going to go back over my plug wires (plugs and wires and cap+rotor are new) and make sure they are all tight but this was going on before i changed them.
Is there a way to test the coil to make sure that its kicking out enough juce?

 

[NOTCH_GUY]

Hi, since you replace all the ignition components already i would start looking at the fuel system. Check the fuel pressure regulator. If you have a pressure gauge you can test the system for a leak down from either the regulator or the injectors. A bad coolant temp sensor, oxygen sensors will cause the to run very rich as well. I've also had computer give me similar problems but it would be good just to take the time and test everything so you don't waste time and money throwing parts at it.
Oh, I'm sure you know this but since it has been running so rich, you may want to swap out those plugs again.

Good luck, let us know how you make out.

 

[aar0s]

the o2's have less than 10k on them, changed them a few years ago. The coolent temp sensor is the one on the drivers side of the lower intake, right?
I was wondering if maybe my FPR was going, damn, i might have to buy an adjustable areomotive that ive been wanting
You know, come to think of it, i think i changed the coolent temp sensor a little while back..

 

[NOTCH_GUY]

On a 5.0 there are two sensors for coolant temp, one on the left lower intake is for the gauge, and the one for the computer should be on the passenger side. 5.0 engine management systems are very touchy. Even the air Temp sensor in the left lower side of the intake will make the car run rich if its contacts are blocked up with oil deposits. Just take your time and check everything one step at a time. Have you checked the air sample contacts in MAF for contamination ?

 

[aar0s]

sorry i dont have much in the sig but the car is an 88 so its sd. mods are cobra intake, 65 mm tb, 1.7's headers Hpipe with dumps. all the mods have been on for years but this problem has just started and its intermittent making even more of a pain in the butt. seems to be worse after the car is warm also...
could the MAP be getting carbon in it causeing the A/F to get all jacked up?

 

[jrichker]

You do not need a vacuum pump to test the EGR. You will need a vacuum gauge and some inexpensive vacuum hose and a plastic fitting.

Some basic theory to clarify how things work is in order…

EGR System theory and testing

The EGR shuts off at Wide Open Throttle (WOT), so it has minimal effect on performance. The addition of exhaust gas drops
combustion temperature, increases gas mileage and reduces the tendency of the engine to ping. It can also reduce HC emissions
by reducing fuel consumption. The primary result of EGR usage is a reduction in NOx emissions.

The EGR system has a vacuum source (line from the intake manifold) that goes to the EVR, computer operated electronic vacuum
regulator. The EVR is located on the back of the passenger side shock strut tower. The computer uses RPM, Load. and some other
factors to tell the EVR to pass vacuum to open the EGR valve. The EGR valve and the passages in the heads and intake manifold
route exhaust gas to the EGR spacer (throttle body spacer). The EGR sensor tells the computer how far the EGR valve is open.
Then computer adjusts the signal sent to the EVR to hold, increase or decrease the vacuum. The computer adds spark advance to
compensate for the recirculated gases and the slower rate they burn at.

Troubleshooting:
There should be no vacuum at the EGR valve when at idle. If there is, the EVR (electronic vacuum regulator) mounted on the
backside of the passenger side wheelwell is suspect. Check the vacuum line plumbing to make sure the previous owner didn’t
cross the vacuum lines.

Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds. (the diagram says 88 GT, but the EGR part is the same for 86-93 Mustangs)

The EGR sensor is basically a variable resistor, like the volume control on a radio. One end is 5 volt VREF power from the
computer (red/orange wire). One end is computer signal ground (black/white), and the middle wire (brown/lt green) is the signal
output from the EGR sensor. It is designed to always have some small voltage output from it anytime the ignition switch is the
Run position. That way the computer knows the sensor & the wiring is OK. No voltage on computer pin 27 (brown/lt green wire)
and the computer thinks the sensor is bad or the wire is broken and sets code 31. The voltage output can range from approximately
.6-.85 volt.

The EVR regulates vacuum to the EGR valve to maintain the correct amount of vacuum. The solenoid coil should measure 20-70
Ohms resistance. The regulator has a vacuum feed on the bottom which draws from the intake manifold. The other vacuum line is
regulated vacuum going to the EGR valve. One side of the EVR electrical circuit is +12 volts anytime the ignition switch is in the
run position. The other side of the electrical circuit is the ground path and is controlled by the computer. The computer switches
the ground on and off to control the regulator solenoid.



EGR test procedure courtesy of cjones

EGR test procedure courtesy of cjones

to check the EGR valve:
bring the engine to normal temp.

connect a vacuum pump to the EGR Valve or see the EGR test jig drawing below. Connnect the test jig or to directly to manifold vacuum.

Do not connect the EGR test jig to the EVR (Electronic Vacuum Regulator).

apply 5in vacuum to the valve. Using the test jig, use your finger to vary the vacuum

if engine stumbled or died then EGR Valve and passage(there is a passageway through the heads and intake) are good.

if engine did NOT stumble or die then either the EGR Valve is bad and/or the passage is blocked.

if engine stumbled, connect EGR test jig to the hose coming off of the EGR Valve.
Use your finger to cap the open port on the vacuum tee.
snap throttle to 2500 RPM (remember snap the throttle don't hold it there).
did the vacuum gauge show about 2-5 in vacuum?
if not the EVR has failed

EGR test jig

To test the computer, you can use a test light across the EVR wiring connectors and dump the codes. When you dump the codes,
the computer does a self test that toggles every relay/actuator/solenoid on and off. When this happens, the test light will flicker.

Late Model Restoration has the Ford Racing M-12071-N302 kit with the EGR valve & sensor along with the ACT & ECT sensors for
$45. See * * * N/A * * * 86-93 SENSOR KIT, 5.0L EFI, INCLUDES EGR VALVE & SENSOR, COOLANT TEMP SENSOR, & AIR CHARGE TEMP SENSOR MUSTANG for
more details

 

[aar0s]

where is a good place to get a vacuum gauge and to hook it to manifold vac?
edit, duh probably the distribution block. can i buy one of those gauges at the 'zone? gota go to wal-mart tonight, think they'd have one?

 

[jrichker]

where is a good place to get a vacuum gauge and to hook it to manifold vac?
edit, duh probably the distribution block. can i buy one of those gauges at the 'zone? gota go to wal-mart tonight, think they'd have one?

AutoZone will have the vacuum gauge, cost is $18-$25.

The vacuum distribution block should be fine for the vacuum source for a vacuum gauge hookup.

 

[aar0s]

uggh, just when i think i get it lined out it gives me another code, 32 this time. Ive already changed the EVR and that fixed the first code but now another one...anyone know what code 32 is?

 

[jrichker]

Code 32 – EGR voltage below closed limit. Vref (5 volt reference voltage supplied by the computer) missing or broken wire or bad connection in circuit. Use a DVM to check for 5 volts on the orange/white wire. If it is missing, look for +5 volts at the orange/white wire on the TPS or MAP sensor located on the firewall near the center of the car. Use the black/white wire for the ground for the DVM.

Let’s put on our Inspector Gadget propeller head beanies and think about how this works:
The EGR sensor is a variable resistor with ground on one leg and Vref (5 volts) on the other. Its’ resistance ranges from 4000 to 5500 Ohms measured between Vref & ground, depending on the sensor. The center connection of the variable resistor is the slider that moves in response to the amount of vacuum applied. The slider has some minimum value of resistance greater than 100 ohms so that the computer always sees a voltage present at its’ input. If the value was 0 ohms, there would be no voltage output. Then the computer would not be able to distinguish between a properly functioning sensor and one that had a broken wire or bad connection. The EGR I have in hand reads 700 Ohms between the slider (EPV) and ground (SIG RTN) at rest with no vacuum applied.

As vacuum is applied, the voltage on the slider increases (EVP). As the voltage increases, the computer knows the how much the EGR valve is opened and how much exhaust gas is being recirculated. It uses the load table to calculate the amount of exhaust gas required depending on RPM, Mass Air Flow, ACT, ECT & TPS. It then sends a signal to the Electronic Vacuum Regulator to hold, increase or decrease the vacuum being applied to the EGR valve.

Theory class is over now, let’s spin up our propeller head beanies and get with it… Go Gadget, Go…

Measure the resistance of the EGR sensor between the two end pins. You should see between 3500 to 5500 Ohms. With the sensor removed, measure the resistance again while pressing on the plunger. You should see the resistance drop from its high value to a low reading of 200-700 ohms depending on the sensor. No resistance readings, or values way out of range, the sensor is bad.
If the Orange white wire has Vref, (5 volts =/-.25 volt) then you have some wiring problems because the computer isn’t seeing the minimum voltage on the EVR pin. Ohm the wiring back to the computer. Check for resistance between the brown/lt green wire on the EGR sensor and pin 27 on the computer: you should have less than 1 ohm. Repeat the process for the orange/white wire and pin 26. Do it again between the black/white wire and pin 46. In no case should you have more than 1 ohm. Remember that resistance checks are always done with the power off the circuit.


Voltage and resistance checks are good: Here’s an EGR test procedure I copied from cjones

EGR test procedure

to check the EGR valve:
bring the engine to normal temp.

connect a vacuum pump to the EGR Valve or see the EGR test jig drawing below. Connnect the test jig or to directly to manifold vacuum.

Do not connect the EGR test jig to the EVR (Electronic Vacuum Regulator).

apply 5in vacuum to the valve. Using the test jig, use your finger to vary the vacuum

if engine stumbled or died then EGR Valve and passage(there is a passageway through the heads and intake) are good.

if engine did NOT stumble or die then either the EGR Valve is bad and/or the passage is blocked.

if engine stumbled, connect EGR test jig to the hose coming off of the EGR Valve.
Use your finger to cap the open port on the vacuum tee.
snap throttle to 2500 RPM (remember snap the throttle don't hold it there).
did the vacuum gauge show about 2-5 in vacuum?
if not the EVR has failed

EGR test jig

t.

If the test procedure fails to provide proper vacuum, check vacuum feed lines for cracks & damage. If the vacuum lines are good, check the electrical wiring to the EVR. If the EVR electrical wiring is good, look for 12 volts on the red wire for the EVR. If the 12 volts is good, look for a varying voltage on the dark green wire on the EVR. Case of last resort, replace the EVR and then the computer