Top End Kit or Supercharger?

93gtmustang · Feb 24, 2024

Thinking of one of these projects for next Winter. It's a tough choice. Sometimes I just can't justify spending that kind of money to go 1 second quicker in the 1/4 mile LOL!
I run 12.3's generally with my current set up Ford Racing Crate Engine. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-6007-XB3M
The car is not street driven, drag only. https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-k525-432-370
https://lmr.com/item/VOR-4FA218010L/1986-93-Mustang-50L-Satin-V-3-Si-Trim-Low-Boost-Vortech-Supe
About the same price for either. Plus, factor in about $3200.00 for a new engine management system like Holley EFI Terminator X. Larger fuel pump. Upgrade ignition, upgrade the intake.
And the NHRA safety requirements, SFI flywheel, flywheel shield, transmission shield. Not sure the cost of that? I already have the cage, race seat and harness.
I'm back and forth on either kit. Right now I am leaning toward the Trickflow Top End Kit. Just because I would be upgrading my heads and cam for the future. Like a Dart 347 short block.
Let's hear your thoughts!
Thanks!

nickyb · Feb 24, 2024

How big of a hit are you running to go 12's with a 340 hp motor?

Bullitt347 · Feb 24, 2024

93gtmustang said:
Thinking of one of these projects for next Winter. It's a tough choice. Sometimes I just can't justify spending that kind of money to go 1 second quicker in the 1/4 mile LOL!
I run 12.3's generally with my current set up Ford Racing Crate Engine. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/FMS-M-6007-XB3M
The car is not street driven, drag only. https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-k525-432-370
https://lmr.com/item/VOR-4FA218010L/1986-93-Mustang-50L-Satin-V-3-Si-Trim-Low-Boost-Vortech-Supe
About the same price for either. Plus, factor in about $3200.00 for a new engine management system like Holley EFI Terminator X. Larger fuel pump. Upgrade ignition, upgrade the intake.
And the NHRA safety requirements, SFI flywheel, flywheel shield, transmission shield. Not sure the cost of that? I already have the cage, race seat and harness.
I'm back and forth on either kit. Right now I am leaning toward the Trickflow Top End Kit. Just because I would be upgrading my heads and cam for the future. Like a Dart 347 short block.
Let's hear your thoughts!
Thanks!

How far into the future is this Dart 347 short block?
If unknown, then go with the S/C. More power for the money.
Have you checked into the price of a Dart 347 short block, let alone the availability?

93gtmustang · Feb 24, 2024

nickyb said:
How big of a hit are you running to go 12's with a 340 hp motor?

I'm not running any nitrous. Car weighs about 2850 lbs.

93gtmustang · Feb 24, 2024

Bullitt347 said:
How far into the future is this Dart 347 short block?
If unknown, then go with the S/C. More power for the money.
Have you checked into the price of a Dart 347 short block, let alone the availability?

2 or 3 years. Just checked Summit. Not in stock. $7800.00. WOW! No thanks! Maybe another route. For that amount of money I might as well spend more and get this! https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-M50SB

Bullitt347 · Feb 24, 2024

93gtmustang said:
2 or 3 years. Just checked Summit. Not in stock. $7800.00. WOW! No thanks! Maybe another route. For that amount of money I might as well spend more and get this! https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6007-M50SB

Are you planning on running in the NMRA in the stock Coyote class?
The engine you linked to is for that class. Must show a MNRA/Competition License to buy that engine.

93gtmustang · Feb 24, 2024

Bullitt347 said:
Are you planning on running in the NMRA in the stock Coyote class?
The engine you linked to is for that class. Must show a MNRA/Competition License to buy that engine.

I would like to some day. Probably will never happen. That's a great class to watch on youtube. Almost all stick cars running low 10's to high 9's I didn't realize you had to have a NMRA License to buy it.

2000xp8 · Feb 24, 2024

12.2 with that engine is a solid time.
Though i've seen it go faster with full weight.

Most likely you are in a bind.
A trick flow top end kit will make the car faster, but probably not by all that much.
Also the top end kit that works best with a 302 isn't going to be what's optimal for a 347 or 363.
If you buy the supercharger and then do a stroker most likely now the supercharger will be undersized.
So the future thing, isn't so simple.
Not sure the upgradeability of super chargers these days, you used to be able to buy a heavy duty S and turn it into a T, but i have no clue how it works now.

It's a slippery slope.

Noobz347 · Feb 24, 2024

If it's track only, why not feed it juice until it cries uncle? Lot's of stock bottom ends out there running 10s with E7s and juice.

I think a good nitrous system falls into your price range even.

FastDriver · Feb 24, 2024

93gtmustang said:
I'm not running any nitrous. Car weighs about 2850 lbs.

That's what I figured. I ran a 12.63 with less horsepower and about 400 more pounds. Anyways, the obvious answer for you is a supercharger. If you want a nice reliable motor, intercool it, boost it to the point it makes 450 rear wheel horsepower, and enjoy it. You can make more power, but I still subscribe to the 500RWHP block limit for Turbo and nitrous cars and less for supercharged cars due to the parasitic drag.

Definitely a lot harder to put that kind of power down naturally aspirated with any top end kit on a 302 or 306. Plus, usually the only way to do it is to spin it to the Moon which is a terrible idea on a stock block.

Bullitt347 · Feb 24, 2024

Noobz347 said:
If it's track only, why not feed it juice until it cries uncle? Lot's of stock bottom ends out there running 10s with E7s and juice.

I think a good nitrous system falls into your price range even.

I like that combo.
But I think he only spins it to 5,800 rpm to keep the stock bottom end alive.
Nitrous requires a unique tune and the fuel quality has to be right.
If you don't know those tuning requirements, you can kill a lot of parts quickly.
Ask me how I know...
Then again, they make new pistons every day.

Noobz347 · Feb 24, 2024

I get ya but that's pretty much [any] power adder.

93gtmustang · Feb 25, 2024

2000xp8 said:
12.2 with that engine is a solid time.
Though i've seen it go faster with full weight.

Most likely you are in a bind.
A trick flow top end kit will make the car faster, but probably not by all that much.
Also the top end kit that works best with a 302 isn't going to be what's optimal for a 347 or 363.
If you buy the supercharger and then do a stroker most likely now the supercharger will be undersized.
So the future thing, isn't so simple.
Not sure the upgradeability of super chargers these days, you used to be able to buy a heavy duty S and turn it into a T, but i have no clue how it works now.

It's a slippery slope.

It averages 12.3's. Good air 12.2 . Humidity 12.4. It was 2830 without driver when I had the T-5 in it. Now I have a C-4 in it. I'll have to weigh it again when the track opens.
The Trick Flow top end kit says 432 horsepower. I wonder if that's flywheel or rear wheel horsepower. I emailed them but never heard back.
This Motor Trend article says the Vortec V-3 SCi supercharger is good up until 725 horsepower.

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/mmfp-0909-vortech-v3-sci-supercharger-mustang-5l-engine-kit-upgrade/

I agree. It is a slippery slope.

93gtmustang · Feb 25, 2024

Noobz347 said:
If it's track only, why not feed it juice until it cries uncle? Lot's of stock bottom ends out there running 10s with E7s and juice.

I think a good nitrous system falls into your price range even.

I considered Nitrous. But I don't want to deal with it for bracket racing. Maybe if I was just test and tuning to see how fast I could go.

2000xp8 · Feb 25, 2024

The trick flow kit on a 302 is going to be nowhere near 432hp even at the flywheel. Even the best combination on a stock 302 i've ever seen (in person) wouldn't equate to 432rwhp (AFR 165's, custom cam, RPMII intake, made 359rwhp).
You can probably expect 300rwhp to 320rwhp.
You probably have around 280rwhp now.
X's can be stretched past 300rwhp with minimum work.
Same friend ran 11.80@116 with an retarded E-cam, valve jobbed X heads and a real gt40 intake with lower intake port matched to the heads.
My other buddy who owned the shop mandated all heads and intakes goto the machine shop or he wouldn't install them. His X headed setup made 316rwhp if i remember correctly.
X castings aren't really that great from the factory, neither are Y's (both of which i have owned along with a set of extruded honed twisted wedges).
He was also very much a track guy, one of those that wasn't afraid to break things, and break things he did, a lot of transmissions...

93gtmustang · Feb 25, 2024

2000xp8 said:
The trick flow kit on a 302 is going to be nowhere near 432hp even at the flywheel. Even the best combination on a stock 302 i've ever seen (in person) wouldn't equate to 432rwhp (AFR 165's, custom cam, RPMII intake, made 359rwhp).
You can probably expect 300rwhp to 320rwhp.
You probably have around 280rwhp now.
X's can be stretched past 300rwhp with minimum work.
Same friend ran 11.80@116 with an retarded E-cam, valve jobbed X heads and a real gt40 intake with lower intake port matched to the heads.
My other buddy who owned the shop mandated all heads and intakes goto the machine shop or he wouldn't install them. His X headed setup made 316rwhp if i remember correctly.
X castings aren't really that great from the factory, neither are Y's (both of which i have owned along with a set of extruded honed twisted wedges).
He was also very much a track guy, one of those that wasn't afraid to break things, and break things he did, a lot of transmissions...

I don't know why Trick Flow would state that? But, that's what it said on their site.
Here's the link https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-k525-432-370/make/ford
I wonder what max rpm those trick flow heads are good for? It would be nice if they responded to emails. Geez!
I know the x heads are done after something like 5500 -5600. I'm hitting 6000 at the finish line. Sometimes a little more.

93gtmustang · Feb 25, 2024

Hear we go. I just found this.

https://static.trickflow.com/global/images/chartsguides/t/tfs-k525-432-370.pdf

2000xp8 · Feb 25, 2024

Well, that's an 11R kit on a 306 with 11.0:1 compression and i'm not sure what a track max cam is or if it has the specs to clear, but my guess would be it doesn't.
Also has a carb.

If you are going to go that route, you might as well just build the new engine now from the ground up.

93gtmustang · Feb 25, 2024

2000xp8 said:
Well, that's an 11R kit on a 306 with 11.0:1 compression and i'm not sure what a track max cam is or if it has the specs to clear, but my guess would be it doesn't.
Also has a carb.

If you are going to go that route, you might as well just build the new engine now from the ground up.

Yup I saw the 11..0:1 compression. Mine is 9.0:0 compression.
I agree. At that point might as well get a Boss block too and build it with all forged internals. Go big or go home I guess LOL!

FastDriver · Feb 25, 2024

2000xp8 said:
Even the best combination on a stock 302 i've ever seen (in person) wouldn't equate to 432rwhp (AFR 165's, custom cam, RPMII intake, made 359rwhp).

Got a link to the build? Especially interested in the cam specs and power peak. I'dwant peak power in the 5,300 range for a 5,800-6k shift point. This build with a 100-150 shot would be the perfect stock-ish combo. Easy to swap/rebuild short blocks affordably.

As to the rest of your post, when I blow Black Jack's 200k mi. short block, I want to optimize a top-end and that kind of output would be exceptional. I'm guessing this was probably milled to over 10:1 compression with maybe some flat top pistons.

TFS 11R 170s are looking pretty good to me. AFR 165s are always in the running, too.

My old AFR165 combo with an Ed Curtis special (224/228, 111LSA, .555/.560) and a lightly ported lower Cobra made ~320 and trapped 111-112 mph in a 3150 lbs car. I might just replicate that build.

Top End Kit or Supercharger?

93gtmustang

nickyb

I gotta say i never painted my nuts, Never Ever

Bullitt347

I have been doing it wrong this whole time

93gtmustang

93gtmustang

Bullitt347

I have been doing it wrong this whole time

93gtmustang

2000xp8

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet

Bullitt347

I have been doing it wrong this whole time

Noobz347

Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor

93gtmustang

93gtmustang

2000xp8

93gtmustang

93gtmustang

2000xp8

93gtmustang

FastDriver

I was uncomfortably high & wearing a helmet

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