Engine Top End Tune Up - Need Advice

Auto Reverse · Nov 22, 2012

I haven't touched my motor in about 6 years and want to make sure I stay ahead of a new stock Coyote 5.0's. My AFR 165's are 58cc and make high compression but I bought them when I had a 302 block. Where can I realistically get some more power? AFR 185 or AFR 195's? Are 205's too big? New cam? I've been out of the parts tech loop for some time and could use some good advice and experience. Thanks in advance.

DSS Pro Bullet 331 Short Block
AFR 165 Heads, 58cc
Crane PowerMax Cam (F-303 Specifications)
Holley SysteMax II Intake
C&L 76mm Mass Air
BBK 75mm Throttle Body
30 lbs. Injectors
MSD Digital 6 Ignition System
MAC Longtube Headers
MAC ProChamber H-Pipe
MAC ProDumps Exhaust
BBK Cold Air Induction
Ford Performace Parts 3.73 Gears

reldla1996 · Nov 22, 2012

AFR 185's are a great choice for a street motor for your 331. The 205's might hurt your low rpm torque a little, but will help the top end hp numbers. It's all about trade offs. I went with the AFR 185 comp for my 369, the flow numbers are very close to the 205's, but keep the velocity a little higher at lower rpm's.

2000xp8 · Nov 23, 2012

Lose the C&L in exchange for a 95mm pro m, not only is the C&L a piece of crap, but at that size with those parts it's seriously restrictive.
Then add in a custom cam.

Not sure i'd bother changing the heads, afr 165's are pretty good and you already have them.
Is there more power to be had with 185's? Probably, but i don't know if the money and trouble will be worth the gains.

Simply changing the cam and meter which is easy and cheap will probably net you quite a bit of power.

Auto Reverse · Nov 23, 2012

Thanks for the reply. I start with the MAF and get a solid tune as its never been tuned with a chip.

mikestang63 · Nov 23, 2012

x2 on ditching the C&L. Also, an adjustable FPR will help with the tune.

2000xp8 · Nov 23, 2012

Auto Reverse said:
Thanks for the reply. I start with the MAF and get a solid tune as its never been tuned with a chip.

Don't waste your money on a tune and a chip, it's not needed or effective on a fox.
Trust me, a friend of mine owns a dyno shop.

srtthis · Nov 23, 2012

2000xp8 said:
Don't waste your money on a tune and a chip, it's not needed or effective on a fox.
Trust me, a friend of mine owns a dyno shop.

chips wont always help you make more power but they can help clean up driveablity issues...

f8tlfiveo · Nov 23, 2012

srtthis said:
chips wont always help you make more power but they can help clean up driveablity issues...

100% agree with this..

2000xp8 · Nov 24, 2012

f8tlfiveo said:
100% agree with this..

My issue is this, i've seen some of the wildest stock computer tune setups on foxes you could ever imagine.
None of which left the shop with any computer tuning or driveability issues.
That includes a 650+rwhp 60lb injector procharger D1 setup with a blowthrough meter.
I've physically seen it tested, with the right parts and proper installation, there is nothing to be had with any tuning.

Do i believe that people use tunes to mask screw ups? That i do.
You know the guys, they pick up 30rwhp to make 300rwhp up from 270rwhp when everyone else with the same parts made that number without a tune.

srtthis · Nov 24, 2012

2000xp8 said:
My issue is this, i've seen some of the wildest stock computer tune setups on foxes you could ever imagine.
None of which left the shop with any computer tuning or driveability issues.
That includes a 650+rwhp 60lb injector procharger D1 setup with a blowthrough meter.
I've physically seen it tested, with the right parts and proper installation, there is nothing to be had with any tuning.

Do i believe that people use tunes to mask screw ups? That i do.
You know the guys, they pick up 30rwhp to make 300rwhp up from 270rwhp when everyone else with the same parts made that number without a tune.

some tuners yes will mask issues with the tune... the guy i work with on the other hand will not.

there is a lot you can do with tunes to help make power. peak power is one thing to look at but power in the mid range.
cleaning up air fuel is huge for making power. you can you do that with out a tune? yes... just raise the fuel pressure to get it where you want it but in the end when its running open loop your still going to be stuck running in the factory map for air fuel...

88LX5.Oh · Nov 24, 2012

So if the factory Ford tuning is so good, why do they make tuners like Moates and TwEECer?

2000xp8 · Nov 24, 2012

88LX5.Oh said:
So if the factory Ford tuning is so good, why do they make tuners like Moates and TwEECer?

Money.
My rule is simple, better parts make more power for the same amount of money as computer tuning.
For example a guy with gt40p heads makes about 265rwhp, with tuning, it's still 265rwhp.
Take the $750 you blow on widebands, tuning software etc, put that into afr 165's and you can be talking about 50rwhp+(conservative number, i've seen over 350rwhp on a 302).
Which would you rather have? A tuned 265rwhp car or untuned 315rwhp?

If you have every high end part, i could see fooling with all the tuning crap, would i? Likely not, but i could still understand it. Still though, if you haven't maxed your car out with high quality parts, it's money wasted.

89stang1 · Nov 24, 2012

i agree with custom grind cam and a pmas or pms meter instead of c&l meter and if you wanna split hairs id dump the bbk throttle body for an accufab might not gain any power but wont make any sounds and will be trouble free and look great!. afr 165 heads are good but a little small for a 331 185s will gain you a little but for more $. And i gotta go with getting a tune even NA my car found 30 hp more with tune, get a piggyback chip my 333 gets good gas mileage and drivability is real good on street good luck

f8tlfiveo · Nov 24, 2012

A calibrated mass air meter just tricks the computer.. My slot meter is actually set correctly with the Maf transfer. Along with my 42 lb injectors. My Maf cost me 14$ from a stock 05+ ford vehicle. How much is a "calibrated Maf"? Way more than that.. If I need more airflow I can take my slot meter out and put it in a larger pipe down the road. Without a tuning device you need another "calibrated" Maf.. It goes both ways, I only pay 100$ for a tune, and it's not on a dyno.. It's real street driving.. So drive ability issues are taken care of.. It drives like a stock mustang.

88LX5.Oh · Nov 24, 2012

If I had a 331 stroker with nice aluminum heads and other miscellaneous go fast goodies, I would not trust computer software from pre - 1986 to run said engine. Because that's a LOT of money you're putting into an engine. A $600 dyno tune to make damn sure the air/fuel ratio is correct throughout the ENTIRE RPM range is honestly like cheap insurance to me. What's another $600 when you have an engine you've invested probably well over 4K into?

madspeed · Nov 24, 2012

pay for a tune by drive? WTF is that....

f8tlfiveo · Nov 24, 2012

madspeed said:
pay for a tune by drive? WTF is that....

Who are you quoting? If it was me you must have read my post wrong or just don't understand what I posted. I said I pay 100$ for someone to tune my car.. I drive it and datalog the info, then email the datalog to my tuner. He looks at it, makes changes and emails me another .bin file to load up. I do this until I am satisfied with the way the car drives.

madspeed · Nov 24, 2012

ok, that sounds better!!

88LX5.Oh · Nov 24, 2012

f8tlfiveo said:
Who are you quoting? If it was me you must have read my post wrong or just don't understand what I posted. I said I pay 100$ for someone to tune my car.. I drive it and datalog the info, then email the datalog to my tuner. He looks at it, makes changes and emails me another .bin file to load up. I do this until I am satisfied with the way the car drives.

Is it $100 per tune he writes? Because that would suck if you had to go through like 6 different tunes and be out $600 lol

f8tlfiveo · Nov 24, 2012

88LX5.Oh said:
Is it $100 per tune he writes? Because that would suck if you had to go through like 6 different tunes and be out $600 lol

Not 100$ every time he sends me one. I had him do 2 different tunes for me 1 for the setup I have now and one for the previous setup.. He will go until you are satisfied with it.

Engine Top End Tune Up - Need Advice

Auto Reverse

Member

reldla1996

Member

2000xp8

Auto Reverse

Member

mikestang63

2000xp8

srtthis

the guy doing it does every local racers rear end

f8tlfiveo

My wife likes my spool and blow-off valve.

2000xp8

srtthis

the guy doing it does every local racers rear end

88LX5.Oh

2000xp8

89stang1

Stroked and Juiced

f8tlfiveo

My wife likes my spool and blow-off valve.

88LX5.Oh

madspeed

Colonel Mustard

f8tlfiveo

My wife likes my spool and blow-off valve.

madspeed

Colonel Mustard

88LX5.Oh

f8tlfiveo

My wife likes my spool and blow-off valve.

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Engine Top End Tune Up - Need Advice

Member

Member

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the guy doing it does every local racers rear end

My wife likes my spool and blow-off valve.

the guy doing it does every local racers rear end

Stroked and Juiced

My wife likes my spool and blow-off valve.

Colonel Mustard

My wife likes my spool and blow-off valve.

Colonel Mustard

My wife likes my spool and blow-off valve.

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