Totally lost on fresh engine start up

[1966ponyguy]

Ok, time to start the motor for the first time. It's a 5.0 out of a 1985 Grand Marq. It was FI to start with. I have totally went through the engine, AFR heads, stroked to 347. Now for the important stuff: Trick Flow Street heat cam, (roller hyd) stock distrubitor with a MSD 6AL connected to it and MSD cap. The Haynes manual I have for the Grand Marquis states the firing order as 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. I have been trying for 2 days now to get it started. It wants to run so bad, but will not run. It tries to run, is getting fire, but will not run. I changed out the FI intake, with a 4 bbl intake and Holley (also rigged up a low pressure fuel pump). No change in starting, the distrubutor has been in and out, moved one tooth, each way without help. Last night it did backfire 2 times (had not been backfiring). The last time it blew the muffler cases apart. Looking at Trick Flow web site, it shows the firing order at 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8. Tried that, it doesn't even try to start now. So I changed everything back. Found TDC made sure that the rotor is pointing at the #1 cylinder at about 6 - 7 degrees BTDC. (Does it matter which terminal you use for #1 as long as the rotor is correctly pointing at the #1 plug when it should). I'm lost, I know I am getting fuel, I know I am getting spark, I even moved the timing 180 degrees just to make sure.

PLEASE HELP BEFORE I SIT FIRE TO IT.

 

[rbohm]

been there, done that, burned the freaking T-shirt..........several times.

first make sure the #1 cylinder is at top dead center compression stroke. now find out where the rotor is pointing, and use that as the number one plug wire location. adjust the distributor as needed. wire the firing order counter clockwise as indicated on the cam timing card. set the timing at 10 degrees before top dead center. now make sure the choke is properly set on the carb, and prime the fuel bowls. make sure the valves are adjusted properly. at this point you can try starting the car. have someone crank the engine over while you move the dist as needed. make sure the person who is behind the wheel knows to run the engine at 1500+ rpm, and NOT let the engine idle for 20min.

 

[1966ponyguy]

More Info

Going to go back from ground 0 tomorrow. One thing I picked up on from the first reply. Since this has a hyd roller cam, I was under the impression that no valve adjustments where needed. I'm having some problems with the timing marks. I am running the late (85 model) balancer with an early timing cover and early water pump (standard rotation). I'm not sure if the early pointer is in the correct position. Here's what I did to work through this: I have an adapter that allows a dial indicator to screw into the plug hole. While turning the engine over by hand, I watched the indicator until I found the highest reading (piston at top of cylinder). Problem is the piston stays on top for a couple of degrees before starting down. I am just holding my thumb over the empty plug hole to feel for compression (one or both valves should be open during exhaust stroke depending on overlap of the cam). I feel solid that I am on the compression stroke, but really guessing where 10 degrees BTDC is going to be (center of highest indicator reading + maybe 1/4" of movement of the balancer (clockwise). The rotor is then aligned to a sharpie mark on the side of the lower dist cap adapter. The mark is directly under the #1 terminal on the cap. This may not be perfect, but I think it should be close enough to start. Turning the dist clockwise seems to tighten up the motor while I get more backfires by turning it counter clockwise.

 

[BarnStang]

You said that you didn't think a roller cam needed to have the valves adjusted. Did you go back and adjust the valves? If the valve lash is not adjusted right it could explain your symptoms. Worse, if they are too tigt, the valves could hit the pistons and be bent and no longer seal. Check the adjustment on the valve lash, then do a compression check before you try to start it. Hope no valves are bent...

 

[D.Hearne]

Try the TDC method again, but this time write down the degree when the piston stops, then when it starts again, divide by half and that's TDC. Firing order will be 13726548 with that cam.

 

[rbohm]

you need a timing pointer for the dampner that you are using. ford had four different pointers, three of which are bolt on. they are also in different locations. get the right pointer, and i think you will be able to fix your timing problem.

 

[SoCalCruising]

rbohm probably hit the nail on the head. You must match the pointer location (10:00 o'clock, 11:00, or 2:00) with the way the balancer is marked.

Alternatively, you may find TDC and then re-tape your balancer to indicate TDC at the pointer location you have. For example, let's say you have an 11:00 o'clock compatible damper and an old-style, 2:00 o'clock pointer. Find TDC, then re-tape the damper (timing tape - sold by Mr. Gasket and others) so that your 2:00 pointer will now point to TDC. Then re-stab your distributor accordingly.

 

[SoCalCruising]

Any update?

 

[GT1966]

Not sure how much "cranking" has gone-on here, but I experienced wiping-off a couple lobes last year with the same "lost-in-the-wilderness" experience. Cam lube disappears quicker than I expected. Chalked-up to a learning experience. Good luck.
GT1966

 

[1966ponyguy]

Progress Update (warning long winded)

I haven't gotten much time to work on it (just to hot). But I did, using a dial indicator replacing #1 plug, find TDC. Then, using the timing pointer made on the early model timing cover, filed a small groove into the balancer to display TDC. I took a paint pen and put a paint mark into the groove, then wiped off the excess paint leaving me a very visual mark for TDC that lines up with the factory pointer. My belief is that the later model engine's pointer should have been at about 11 oclock, where the early model pointer is at about 2 oclock. I have ordered the timing tape mentioned earlier. I replaced all the plug wires, rechecked the gaps, talked with the engine builder (about 300 miles away or I would have him come up) about valve adjustment (he told me they were correct and from my testing, he is right). I used the late model firing order as directed by the cam. Moved the crank about 8 degrees BTDC (guessing on the distance between the original marks on the balancer which are at 10 AFDC, 0, 10 BTDC, and 20 BTDC and are about 1/2" between each 10 degree line.) Lined the rotor up with #1 plug on the compression stroke. Still have not gotten it started, it really wants to start, but still will not start. I set the air screws on the Holley all the way in, and backed out 1 1/2 turns. The choke is not working on the carb. Don't really want to fix it since I will be putting the FI back on as soon as everything is running. I thought it would be "easier" to start initially with a carb since I know that it's getting fuel and is easier to prime if neccessary. I'm starting to wonder about the MSD box. I have cranked it several prelonged times each day for a week or so, get home from work, open hood, try to start, close hood, cuss, go in house. Any help on should I be looking at the fuel side or the fire side. Turning the dist helps, I have the dist set (pretty much back where it lines up with 8 degrees BTDC) and that seems to be the closest to running. It is backfiring through the carb, and often has flames comming out of the carb neck (rag fixes that). Plan on working on it this weekend, but I am quickly running out of ideals. Any help? Anyone close to Monticello KY (center of state almost on Tenn line) that would not mind stopping by?

 

[jeffnoel]

I went through this same thing a couple weeks ago. Get someone to help while you crank and have them just keep turning the distributor. I was doing the same things your doing to no avail because I thought I had everything lined up, well my engine finally started when the distributor vac can was pointed at the drivers headlight.

Don't worry about wiping a lobe from your roller cam that's more a flat tappet problem.