Updated TCP G-Bar triangulated 4-link...

mercomet · Jan 22, 2008

HTH system

Thanks for the replys. If you can believe anything the manufacturer claims, besides a challange to route exhaust, which several of the systems pose, it sounds like an ideal set-up. Very nice ride, boxing and strengthening the middle of my weak unibody, wheel travel as independant as can be with a solid axle, great for traction and adjustable there as well. They claim there is much less suspension bind than any 4 link. That sounds like the perfect street set up.
I can always find a way to deal with exhaust. Now keep in mind, I'm pretty much your typical garage builder. I could install any of these systems but I don't have much understanding as to why one would be better than the other. I rely on personal feedback and install/testing articles to find out. I love it when people post the pro and cons of a particular set up. I know it's from the old chevy trucks, my first vehicle was a 68 chevy pickup. But that doesn't mean a modified version could not be a great system today.

any comments and info is appreciated. I will also be spending plenty of time going through the other suspension forums as was suggested. Thanks

reenmachine · Jan 22, 2008

mercomet said:
wheel travel as independant as can be with a solid axle

If you're referring to the HTH setup I just can't agree. I see this setup being great in a straight line but it's a stretch for them to make the handling claims they do. Sorry, I just don't consider NASCAR to be the pinnacle of sports-car handling.

reenmachine · Jan 22, 2008

...and I should add that if you really want to get into the nuts & bolts of suspension stuff, check out Corner Carvers at www.corner-carvers.com/forums.

Here are a couple links to discussions of truckarm suspensions there:

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6810

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5863

Oh, and I guess I'd better warn you -- be very careful about posting on Corner Carvers. Unless you have searched the forum exhaustively and researched your question in depth, they will send someone to your house to punch your mom in the neck. That's also the strength of their forum, as there is an incredibly high information density. Far less fluff and chaff than any other forum.

skywalker · Jan 22, 2008

reenmachine said:
...and I should add that if you really want to get into the nuts & bolts of suspension stuff, check out Corner Carvers at www.corner-carvers.com/forums.

Here are a couple links to discussions of truckarm suspensions there:

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6810

http://www.corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5863

Oh, and I guess I'd better warn you -- be very careful about posting on Corner Carvers. Unless you have searched the forum exhaustively and researched your question in depth, they will send someone to your house to punch your mom in the neck. That's also the strength of their forum, as there is an incredibly high information density. Far less fluff and chaff than any other forum.

Not to hi-jack the thread (I'm enjoying it thoroughly as I try to plan how I want to do the supension on my '66) but why are the guys at corner-carver's that daft?

reenmachine · Jan 22, 2008

skywalker said:
Not to hi-jack the thread (I'm enjoying it thoroughly as I try to plan how I want to do the supension on my '66) but why are the guys at corner-carver's that daft?

They're not daft at all, it's just a different flavor of forum. It's presented as a place for those who are in the know to discuss advanced suspension topics more so than a place to get basic questions answered. The general mentality is that if you ask a question it had better not be able to be answered with the search function, and almost everything can be answered with the search function.

bnickel · Jan 22, 2008

reenmachine said:
They're not daft at all, it's just a different flavor of forum. It's presented as a place for those who are in the know to discuss advanced suspension topics more so than a place to get basic questions answered. The general mentality is that if you ask a question it had better not be able to be answered with the search function, and almost everything can be answered with the search function.

been there done that and nearly got trampled. also make sure you use correct punctuation and capitilization, nothing angers the suspension gods more than not using correct grammar, that's even worse than not using the search function, they'll send someone to your house to take out mom's kneecaps with a baseball bat.

no, they're not really daft at all, they just get sick and tired of answering the same questions over and over again, especially dumb ones (or what they consider dumb ones), most of all make sure to read the forum rules before even posting in any thread.

there is a ton of good information to be had on the C-C forum and as was said most of it can be found with judicious use of the search feature. i actually ended up cancelling my first subscription to the forum and came back a few years later and lurked for a few months before ever posting in a thread, the second time around. now i'm just kind of invisible there , invisible is good sometimes.

mercomet · Jan 22, 2008

well, I was hoping for some discussion in language that normal people use but I knew better going over to corner carversafter that warning. Same bunch of engineer jargon on a bunch of theories that none of them agree on, everyone politely bickering some moot point that's so far from the question. I'm not impressed or intimidated by that lingo. And after all the posturing, no consensous. Probably don't even remember the question.
Who does that impress or help ? Where's the plain language and to the point answers that normal people can grasp. I don't want to go get a 4 year college degree just so I can talk to someone who knows more than me about suspension stuff. Those folks are just up on their high horse if they can't tell someone who's not an engineer why this works and that doesn't and that's why this system is better than that for street but that system over there is better for the strip cause it does this. See !! simple. The ones who talk down to folks with all the jibberish jargon don't want to help anyway, so why do they even join in ? Ask me something that I know about and I'll tell you so you can understand.
KISS can't be beat.
I've built 4 cars and 1 truck. Motors, suspension, rebuilt rear ends, welded in floors, made my subframe connectors and so on. Nothing fancy but it all works.
My best friend who helps the most is a retired Ford engineer so I'm used to them going off on their jargon trips. We balance each other out well and it's funny.
Enough of that tech jargon. How about clear answers in ENGLISH!
You know that, ReenMachine. You deal with the public and you have to explain to them in a way they understand. That's how it's done.
I know I'm off on a rant folks. I'll be over it soon, forgive me. I've been looking at this stuff for a couple years planning my build and I'm damn near there. Getting the right suspension package for my car is the only thing that is not decided yet.
This forum seams pretty plain talking, thank God for that. That's why I'm here. I'm reading it all and hoping for the best.
Thank you, thank you, for not shooting me. I'm all done. I'll buy you a beer. Now, how about that suspension stuff.

NasaGT · Jan 23, 2008

reenmachine said:
I just received two g-Bar systems this morning and the hardware looks awesome. Everything was packaged extremely well -- I've never had to use a pry bar to open a cardboard box before. Definitely nothing to worry about for international shipments.

I'll try to post some pics later after I get everything unpacked.

I'm anxiously waiting for the pics. And enough money to buy one.

reenmachine · Jan 23, 2008

So here are some pics.

Like I said before, the packaging was bombproof. All of this stuff was sealed into one large 89-lb. box and packed so well that nothing would budge.

Here's everything unpacked. The quality of the components is outstanding. The powder coating is very nice and every other part is either aluminum or plated so nothing will corrode down the road. Each box and bag has a bill of materials describing the contents. This looks like a class act all the way.

I kind of find it hard to believe it sells for $1739.

If it ever stops raining my customer will bring his car up from LA and I'll do the install and post pics of that.

68EFIvert · Jan 23, 2008

Reen,

It looks great! I will be contacting you as early as April to order mine. Now that you have seen it would you say there is a substantial benefit to the mid-level kit that has spherical rod ends? Basically do you think it is worth the money? Do you think the sway bar is worth the additional cost? Or will a sway bar just create additional suspension variables that one does not need to deal with for a street driven car?

Thanks for the pictures. Nice floor by the way.

Darreld

bnickel · Jan 23, 2008

man that kit gives me wood i can't wait to get the cougar home and get started working on it. this kit will be one of the first big ticket items i buy for it. now to get the little stuff done on the stang and get it ready to be listed and then i'll probably cry for a month straight. eventually, i'll get started on the cougar after i'm done mourning the loss of the stang after 24 years of ownership, but the cougar will help soften the blow.

reenmachine · Jan 23, 2008

68EFIvert said:
Reen,

It looks great! I will be contacting you as early as April to order mine. Now that you have seen it would you say there is a substantial benefit to the mid-level kit that has spherical rod ends? Basically do you think it is worth the money?

It all depends on your use. For a regular street car I don't think you'd ever notice the difference in handling and you'd appreciate the ride of of the poly bushings. If you routinely drive your car hard and/or participate in track days I'd opt for the pivot ball g-Link system.

68EFIvert said:
Do you think the sway bar is worth the additional cost? Or will a sway bar just create additional suspension variables that one does not need to deal with for a street driven car?

Almost the same answer here. The thing with a rear sway bar is that you have to know how to use it. For a moderately-driven street car it'll provide a nice tight feeling and won't be a big deal. Under hard driving and/or track conditions you need to carefully adjust and test it or you're asking for trouble. A rear sway bar in the wrong hands can be a dangerous thing at speed as you're asking for more understeer. A rear sway bar in the right hands can also help you shave lap times if that's what you're after.

I'll say something about single- vs. double-adjustable shocks as well. The thing about "upgrading" to shocks with a gazillion different settings is that you need to be able to properly adjust them to get good results from the system. In the majority of cases you're better off with single-adjustable shocks -- make them softer or stiffer to suit your tastes. With doubles you have to adjust compression and rebound separately and that's a level of complexity you just don't need if you're not a regular at the track.

I honestly feel that the best configuration of this system for 75% of people is the poly g-Bar with single-adjustable shocks and no sway bar. It also happens to be the least expensive. It's nice when it works out that way.

68EFIvert said:
Thanks for the pictures. Nice floor by the way.

Darreld

No prob. And thanks!

bnickel · Jan 23, 2008

when i order mine i'm going to order with the sway bar mount installed but will probably get the sway bar at a later date, depending on my budget at the time, either way i want to be able to use the sway bar should i decide to and you have to order the sway bar mount at the time you pruchase the G-Bar.

reenmachine · Jan 23, 2008

bnickel said:
when i order mine i'm going to order with the sway bar mount installed but will probably get the sway bar at a later date, depending on my budget at the time, either way i want to be able to use the sway bar should i decide to and you have to order the sway bar mount at the time you pruchase the G-Bar.

Coincidentally, I just spoke with them about this very topic today. I suggested that they just make the frame brackets with the sway bar mount the default to eliminate this potential gotcha and I think they're going to do that. That way someone who never thought about it beforehand or wasn't made aware or whatever can still add the bar later.

bnickel · Jan 23, 2008

that would be cool, maybe they should offer the swaybar version as the default and offer it without the swaybar mount as an option for those who might want a cleaner looking setup and don't plan on running a sway bar, then again i guess the customer could cut off the sway bar mount if they didn't want it

Blue Oval Man · Jan 23, 2008

I ordered my G-link from Pete last night. He was going to see about getting it setup with the sway bar mounts so I could add it later if I wanted. I also went with the single adjustable shocks, mostly for all the reasons that were stated above. And Man, after seeing the pics of it above, I can't wait to get it in my sweaty little hands!
Oh, by the way, Pete is a terrific guy to deal with.
David.

reenmachine · Jan 23, 2008

Blue Oval Man said:
I ordered my G-link from Pete last night. He was going to see about getting it setup with the sway bar mounts so I could add it later if I wanted. I also went with the single adjustable shocks, mostly for all the reasons that were stated above. And Man, after seeing the pics of it above, I can't wait to get it in my sweaty little hands!
Oh, by the way, Pete is a terrific guy to deal with.
David.

David-
Your kit will indeed ship with the sway bar mounts on the upper brackets to give you that flexibility in the future. Everything should head your way tomorrow.

Blue Oval Man · Jan 23, 2008

reenmachine said:
David-
Your kit will indeed ship with the sway bar mounts on the upper brackets to give you that flexibility in the future. Everything should head your way tomorrow.

Cool! Now I just hope that I don't have an accident in my dreams tonight!
David.

Edbert · Jan 24, 2008

Psydwaze said:
I really don't like putting an actual "horsepower" number on a product. A 300-hp vehicle launching on slicks and a transbrake will put a rearend through more abuse than a 600-hp car on street tires. It's not really the engine torque, it's the flywheel inertia and how hard your hitting the tires that's going to break something.

That cannot be overstated! Power does not break driveline parts...traction does.

mercomet · Jan 24, 2008

bind issues

Psydwaze said:
3-link suspensions, such as the 05-up Mustangs, pivot at both the housing and chassis. (tension/compression link)

Torque arms are fixed to the rearend housing and pivot at chassis mount. (bending arm)

Both require a lateral locating device.

I like your idea, but not sure how much of an improvement it would be over the standard g-Bar. You would have a easier roll center height adjustment with a rear mounted Watts link, and have the multi-position shock and lower control arm brackets of our system. Hmmm... Thats a good hmmm.

Since the refinement of the g-Bar/AirBar system, I have a new found respect for the triangulated four-link suspension. Torque arms are simple and predictable but still have their own set of comprimises which can be aided by using a decoupled mount. But, they also limit any range of instant center adjustment that can be made from the lower control arms; assuming we're stuck with the factory leaf-spring mount for the lower arm.

Our particular triangulated 4-link (g-Bar) allows geometry adjustments beyond the limits of a torque arm system. It also does a very good job at laterally locating the housing. I think the Fox four-links gave this type of suspension a bad reputation for binding once the bushing compliance finally ran out and your car swapped ends. A rising spring rate is unavoidable when using rubber or poly bushings, because there is always some degree of binding. Suprisingly, a correctly designed triangulated four link, with spherical bearings, moves very freely throughout a very wide range of body roll and vertical travel.

As an example, this is one of our Chassisworks billet, triangulated 4-link in roll; completely bind free. There was still misalignment travel of the pivots remaining. But a modern vehicle should never roll this much.

Can someone clear this up more for street car use ? Since many of you are opting for the basic poly bushing G bar, is this saying that could run into some binding issue ? Under what circumstances would that happen ? And what reaction would that cause ? Is it likely to happen with aggresive street driving ? If using the spherical bearings would eliminate that, wouldn't everyone be better served to use that ? Would the ride be much harsher/noisy ? I take my car on 1000 mile road trips, go to the drags on Saturday night, and run errands during the week. It sounds like a street car would never be subject to the conditions to cause a problem there but what driving could have more variables than a 5-600 hp street car with aggresive driving ? When you say a modern vehicle should never roll this much, do you mean modern as in the last 10 years ? or does that include the 60's ford pony cars.

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