Very close to buying a 6psi non-ic KB

mogs01gt · Mar 1, 2006

jstreet0204 said:
Not true, detonation IS indirectly dependent on psi levels, because detonation is directly dependent on heat.

Not correct at all. PSI level is just a measurement on restriction. Has nothing to do with detonation, it does have a direct relation to weather conditions, engine performance and/or mods do to the engine.

raise the psi, you raise the heat.

You are thinking PSI equals power which isnt correct. Again, its a measurement of restriction. More heat in the intake track, does not mean you are making more power, putting a smaller pulley on your blower to increase the amount of air that is flowing through the air track will not change the air temperature unless you are over boosting your turbo or blower. Removing the IC will change the air temps or other conditions that effect the air temps flowing through the engine.

To stop the detonation, you have three options. Lower the air charge temp, pull timing, or add fuel.

You have a lot more options you didnt go into. You didnt even list head design, spark or the majore part tune.

The last two rob power, the first doesn't

depends on the tune

Also 9psi IC's is not the same as 9psi non IC'd. The intercooler lowers the psi slightly because the cooler air is more dense. so 9psi w/ IC is actually flowing more air than 9psi w/o an IC.

incorrect, PSI is a measurement of restriction. 9psi on your boost gauge will always be 9psi. Now if have 9psi on your current setup, you will see less psi after the IC install but most likely more power but again it depends on the tune. A IC does not affect air flow, I have no idea where you go that from.

'03GTinFLA · Mar 1, 2006

I've never heard of anyone blowing an engine with a KB, IC or not. I understand the risks but there is risk with any mod that you do.
I'm going KB 1.7 non-I/C for the same reason KT was thinking. Price isn't bad, that kit was made to run with stock internals anyways, if I had forged then I would go 2.2L. If I'm not happy with the HP, which inevitably will happen, I will upgrade to the I/C but then forged internals would be better, then 2.2L would be better.
It's my way of keeping my spending under control. 1 step at a time.
BTW, KT this whole thread came out of right field for you. Just last night I read about all your reasons why you were not modding your car. It's about time you gave in to the itch.

jstreet0204 · Mar 1, 2006

mogs01gt said:
Not correct at all. PSI level is just a measurement on restriction. Has nothing to do with detonation, it does have a direct relation to weather conditions, engine performance and/or mods do to the engine.

You are completely wrong on this!!!
PSI is directly related to heat. If you compress the air you raise the temp PERIOD.
Detonation occurs when excessive heat and pressure in the combustion chamber cause the air/fuel mixture to autoignite.
You can only have so much heat before you get detonation. See my previouse post on the three things you can do to eleminate detonation.

mogs01gt said:
You are thinking PSI equals power which isnt correct. Again, its a measurement of restriction.

I didn't say psi equals power. But on identicle setups PSI is directly proportional to air flow which DOES equal power.

mogs01gt said:
More heat in the intake track, does not mean you are making more power, putting a smaller pulley on your blower to increase the amount of air that is flowing through the air track will not change the air temperature unless you are over boosting your turbo or blower.
Removing the IC will change the air temps or other conditions that effect the air temps flowing through the engine.

Absolutley FALSE... I didnt say more heat equal more power. But a smaller pulley will increase heat.
Anytime a air is compressed, heat is produced - this is a fundamental law of physics called the ideal gas law. The heat produced is proportional to the volume and pressure of the air that is compressed.

mogs01gt said:
You have a lot more options you didnt go into. You didnt even list head design, spark or the majore part tune.

No, when you are getting detonation you only have those three options. Lower the air charge temp, pull timing (spark), or add fuel. The last two ARE the major part of the tune. The only other option is to lower the ECT which is still another way to simply lower the combustion temps.

Edit: well adding octane is a fourth option, but not practical on a street car.

mogs01gt said:
depends on the tune

No regardless of the tune. Other than the power that is already lost by the occruance of the detonation, pulling timing or adding fuel will always cause a loss in power.
read here for more info.
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ford-techinfo/46gtTechTips.pdf

mogs01gt said:
incorrect, PSI is a measurement of restriction. 9psi on your boost gauge will always be 9psi. Now if have 9psi on your current setup, you will see less psi after the IC install but most likely more power but again it depends on the tune. A IC does not affect air flow, I have no idea where you go that from.

Not incorrect if you see 9psi on your guage and your air charge temp is 190, you are flowing less air than you are if you see 9psi and your air charge temp is 120. Because the air is more dense. I'm not saying the IC affects airflow. I'm saying that HEAT, VOLUME, and PRESSURE are all propotionate. If you raise the pressure you increase heat. If you lower the heat, you decrease pressure. If the presure remains the same, and the temp is lowered, the volume has increased, thus flowing more air. If you are flowing more air, you are making more power.

mogs01gt · Mar 1, 2006

I will just stop right here.

PSI-Pressure measured with respect atmosphere pressure. This is a pressure gauge reading in which the gauge is adjusted to read zero at the surrounding atmospheric pressure.

Kilgore Trout · Mar 1, 2006

exindust said:
OMG Kilgore... a blower before even a K & N Filter...

I have had a K&N all along...

exindust said:
Whynot just do a few thou in preventative maintainence?

I already have spent a thousand+ on that plus yesterday I got by a Saturn Ion Redline check out my thread on it: http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=619177

jasonh_86 · Mar 1, 2006

Hey Killy.. Go 9psi I/C KB kit

/Story

reddrgn01gt · Mar 1, 2006

Kilgore Trout said:
I have had a K&N all along...

I already have spent a thousand+ on that plus yesterday I got by a Saturn Ion Redline check out my thread on it: http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=619177

OMFG that explains it.

Gearbanger 101 · Mar 1, 2006

jstreet0204 said:
Not true, detonation IS indirectly dependent on psi levels, because detonation is directly dependent on heat. raise the psi, you raise the heat. To stop the detonation, you have three options. Lower the air charge temp, pull timing, or add fuel. The last two rob power, the first doesn't. Also 9psi IC's is not the same as 9psi non IC'd. The intercooler lowers the psi slightly because the cooler air is more dense. so 9psi w/ IC is actually flowing more air than 9psi w/o an IC. That is combined with the abilty to add more timing is why the power levels are higher.

That's not totally accurate either. A Positive displacement blower like a Twin Screw or a Roots design will have much higher ACT temp at 9psi than any centrifugal. You can easily get away with 9psi on an S-Trim, but not with a 1.7KB. Thus proving that boost pressure isn’t always relevant to discharge temperature.

Also, an intercooled KB doesn't flow any more air than a Non-intercooled KB. The aftercooling doesn’t take place until after the air has entered the unit itself. Therefore, the blower is still ingesting the same volume of air regardless of its used of a charge cooler or not. The cooled charge does how ever carry a higher oxygen content and exhibit denser properties than the warmer non cooled air charge and as such will show up as more boost pressure on the guage. If we were going on the principal of volume alone, the warmer charge would actually carry prove to be more, since hotter air expands to a greater extent than colder air, You can prove this by blowing up a balloon and leaving it in the freezer overnight. It shrinks down to nothing since the colder air is denser and volumetrically smaller than warmer. Take it out and let it warm up and it expands to full size again….but volume alone isn’t the determining factor. Cooler denser air although it physically takes up less room within the unit itself, is also harder to compress and as such shows up as a higher figure on the boost gauge.

That being said, most blowers pullied for a certain boost levels after adding an aftercooler will actually lose close to a pound of boost after running it through the aftercooler. When blower companies offer boost upgrades, they often actually provide an ever smaller pulley than would be the norm, to compensate for this pressure loss.

jstreet0204 · Mar 1, 2006

Gearbanger 101 said:
That's not totally accurate either. A Positive displacement blower like a Twin Screw or a Roots design will have much higher ACT temp at 9psi than any centrifugal. You can easily get away with 9psi on an S-Trim, but not with a 1.7KB. Thus proving that boost pressure isn’t always relevant to discharge temperature.

But the comparison was on two identical setups, one being intercooled, one not.

Gearbanger 101 said:
Also, an intercooled KB doesn't flow any more air than a Non-intercooled KB. The aftercooling doesn’t take place until after the air has entered the unit itself. Therefore, the blower is still ingesting the same volume of air regardless of its used of a charge cooler or not. The cooled charge does how ever carry a higher oxygen content and exhibit denser properties than the warmer non cooled air charge and as such will show up as more boost pressure on the guage. If we were going on the principal of volume alone, the warmer charge would actually carry prove to be more, since hotter air expands to a greater extent than colder air, You can prove this by blowing up a balloon and leaving it in the freezer overnight. It shrinks down to nothing since the colder air is denser and volumetrically smaller than warmer. Take it out and let it warm up and it expands to full size again….but volume alone isn’t the determining factor. Cooler denser air although it physically takes up less room within the unit itself, is also harder to compress and as such shows up as a higher figure on the boost gauge.

Again, that wasn't what I was saying. What I was saying, is that with the same blower, in order to produce the same boost level through an intercooler, as it does without the intercooler, the pulley will have to be smaller, thus flowing more air. And when I am refering to "more air" I am refering to the mass of the air, not the volume.

Gearbanger 101 said:
That being said, most blowers pullied for a certain boost levels after adding an aftercooler will actually lose close to a pound of boost after running it through the aftercooler. When blower companies offer boost upgrades, they often actually provide an ever smaller pulley than would be the norm, to compensate for this pressure loss.

Exactly, see my above statement.

2000BLKGT · Mar 1, 2006

I'm running a non-cooled 1.7 KB at 6psi.

340 at the wheels.

had 4:10s in the ass before the KB...and figured that power with those gears would make for a real fun street car

and it sure does

TweekedGT · Mar 1, 2006

jstreet0204 said:
You are completely wrong on this!!!
PSI is directly related to heat. If you compress the air you raise the temp PERIOD.
Detonation occurs when excessive heat and pressure in the combustion chamber cause the air/fuel mixture to autoignite.
You can only have so much heat before you get detonation. See my previouse post on the three things you can do to eleminate detonation.

I didn't say psi equals power. But on identicle setups PSI is directly proportional to air flow which DOES equal power.

Absolutley FALSE... I didnt say more heat equal more power. But a smaller pulley will increase heat.
Anytime a air is compressed, heat is produced - this is a fundamental law of physics called the ideal gas law. The heat produced is proportional to the volume and pressure of the air that is compressed.

No, when you are getting detonation you only have those three options. Lower the air charge temp, pull timing (spark), or add fuel. The last two ARE the major part of the tune. The only other option is to lower the ECT which is still another way to simply lower the combustion temps.

Edit: well adding octane is a fourth option, but not practical on a street car.

No regardless of the tune. Other than the power that is already lost by the occruance of the detonation, pulling timing or adding fuel will always cause a loss in power.
read here for more info.
http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/ford-techinfo/46gtTechTips.pdf

Not incorrect if you see 9psi on your guage and your air charge temp is 190, you are flowing less air than you are if you see 9psi and your air charge temp is 120. Because the air is more dense. I'm not saying the IC affects airflow. I'm saying that HEAT, VOLUME, and PRESSURE are all propotionate. If you raise the pressure you increase heat. If you lower the heat, you decrease pressure. If the presure remains the same, and the temp is lowered, the volume has increased, thus flowing more air. If you are flowing more air, you are making more power.

You guys are missing the boat on this. OCTANE is the most important thing that decrease detonation. Heat and pressure do contribute but can be seriously nullified by using higher octane fuel. Why do you think race motors can run with excessive heat and pressure? OCTANE.

jstreet0204 · Mar 1, 2006

TweekedGT said:
You guys are missing the boat on this. OCTANE is the most important thing that decrease detonation. Heat and pressure do contribute but can be seriously nullified by using higher octane fuel. Why do you think race motors can run with excessive heat and pressure? OCTANE.

I mentioned that in one of my posts, but it isn't practical on a street car to run race gas.

TweekedGT · Mar 1, 2006

i like my KB 1.7 and i haven't even driven with it yet. The difference in time between a 6psi and a 9psi is in excess of 1.0 seconds. i say this because my friend initially bought the 6psi kit and he ran 13.6-13.7 in the 1/4. Now he bought the intercooler and can bump it up to 9psi and he runs 12.8-12.9 in the 1/4 with zero traction in first or second gear on street tires. That car can easily run low 12's if he got new tires and could get the car out of the hole. Gives you an idea performance wise anyways.

FalconGuy016 · Mar 1, 2006

Bout time Kilgore With your contribution to the boards, you deserve this.

1fast03pony · Mar 1, 2006

GET SOMETHING AND STOP TALKING ABOUT IT!!

reddrgn01gt · Mar 1, 2006

TweekedGT said:
i like my KB 1.7 and i haven't even driven with it yet. The difference in time between a 6psi and a 9psi is in excess of 1.0 seconds. i say this because my friend initially bought the 6psi kit and he ran 13.6-13.7 in the 1/4. Now he bought the intercooler and can bump it up to 9psi and he runs 12.8-12.9 in the 1/4 with zero traction in first or second gear on street tires. That car can easily run low 12's if he got new tires and could get the car out of the hole. Gives you an idea performance wise anyways.

He must have 0 traction to post those times. The 6psi kit is only a couple of tenths quicker than a stocker on those runs.

Your new set up is going to be awesome by the way. I think that MAC CAI will void your KB warranty though. You might want to check that out. I am pretty sure the warranty is only good if you are using a fenderwell model or the stock airbox.

san~man · Mar 1, 2006

Kilgore...
Do it, IC or not. You can always upgrade to the IC if you so decide.

If I wasn't stuck using 89 octane, I'd have one by now.

bcun10t · Mar 1, 2006

All that PSI and tapmerture, pressure, detanation, heat law of physics I just want more power. no offence to anyone good info maybe to much fo my GED. I kinda got a liitle lost. But check out this kit it seems cool to mehttp://www.jmschip.com/ the velocity VT kit

Red35th · Mar 1, 2006

While you debate what blower to buy, get a nitrous kit...

First week I had my car I thought it was SOO fast. Then I met a WS6 at a light...by the time I hit 2nd I couldn't read his plates anymore. If you are just afraid of the random race, N20 is your friend. It's only ~$400, you know you want to...

Kilgore Trout · Mar 1, 2006

If I was going to do nitrous I would do the Noszle

Very close to buying a 6psi non-ic KB

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