Very Disappointed, Diguisted, etc....

Florida Bob · May 25, 2005

cdog301 said:
First year= BETA version!

I absolutely agree. It isn't the way to do business, but it is a fact of life for the big 3. As hard as it to say, the Japanese have us beat hands down in initial and continuing quality. Just look at the sales figures for Toyota. They have slolen the thunder from the big 3 and there seems to be no end in sight. Toyotas may be boring, but they are built well.

jfischer · May 25, 2005

Florida Bob said:
Toyotas may be boring, but they are built well.

I agree. Toyota makes great cars, but they make nothing that remotely begins to stir my soul. I'd rather have a Mustang or Camaro than anything Toyota makes - even if the American cars are a distant 2nd in quality...

gp001 · May 25, 2005

BrewTownVert said:
so if you want to use the post count to judge those 'first impressions', then you should count the talk posts. someone could be on the board for year(s), post good, valuable, insightful comments, and still show as a newbie since all of their posts are in talk.

when the change was made last month to stop counting the talk posts, i questioned someone (tyler? duner? don't remember for sure) and was told that "that's the way it always was, so that's the way it is" - not the soundest logic in my book.

ah, well, my .02

If the only, or majority, of a persons posts on a car forum are in the "Talk" sections then I would consider them a newbie no matter how long they have been here.

EarlB · May 25, 2005

Sounds like you either don't have an '05 Stang or haven't ran your heater

On the floor vent with heater - a small amount of heat coming out the top exhaust vent would be ok, but we are talking a large volume - much more than what comes out the floor. It is a defect, with a TSB and NO fix since last November. That is not acceptable in my book. Any engineer ought to be able to figure out how to control vacuum and set a vent control.

The gastank, yes the replacement under the TSB resolves the issue with the fueling shutoff - but anyway you look at it, it is a deffect that had the be rectified, one of many on my 'stang (and on many others).

A defect is a defect no matter how you word it or look at it.

I do not have unreasonable expectations. There are plenty of manufacturers that make cars that you can expect few if any problems from. Having owned seven new Fords that was not my expectation going into this car. Hell I had gone through the debacle of owning a Windstar their first production year too. But being in the shop a full 25% of the time - 1 entire MONTH out of the 4 I've owned it, that should not be acceptable to anyone.

Earl

GT-03 said:
I picked just these two out of your list.

Isn't there suppose to be air coming out of the windshield defrosters even when "floor" is selected? That would make this working correctly, even if not to your liking. If so, then by adding this to your list of grievances is indicating that possibly your expectations are becoming a bit unreasonable?

Is the fuel tank being replaced because of the problem where the gas pump nozzle will trip-off before the tank is full? If so, then this is really just one of those first-year design oddities, and not something uniquely defective with your Mustang. BTW, replacing the tank with one with the modified design, fixed it, no?

Jenns01TA · May 26, 2005

Earl,

I understand you frustration having owned 7 Fords - 1970 Ford Maverick/1973 Ford Courier Pick-up/1993 Ford Explorer/1996 Ford Explorer/1998 Mustang/2003 Mustang and a 2005 Mustang........

One thing I know when I buy a Ford is it will inherintly have issues. To understand your perception, I would like to ask for some clarification on this statement though:

"There are plenty of manufacturers that make cars that you can expect few if any problems from."

Plenty technically means: "A large quantity or amount; an abundance."... Please name the manufacturers that you are referring to and the vehicle that has a similiar cost basis. $27,000 - $30,000.

I am not being condescending, I am simply trying to get to see your point of view, as we compare apples - to - apples.

Thanks in advance,

Jennifer

topless beach · May 26, 2005

How about the Mazda 6? Isn't that being manufactured on the same assembly line as the new stang? I wonder if they have quality issues since the same people on the same line are putting them together.

shadowland2000 · May 26, 2005

Florida Bob said:
I absolutely agree. It isn't the way to do business, but it is a fact of life for the big 3. As hard as it to say, the Japanese have us beat hands down in initial and continuing quality. Just look at the sales figures for Toyota. They have slolen the thunder from the big 3 and there seems to be no end in sight. Toyotas may be boring, but they are built well.

The question is why do the Japanese have us so beat on quality? Is it due to better engineers (which could come down to work ethic, or just a more meticulous approach to engineering). Or maybe America's best engineers are just not working for auto companes as better money can be found elsewhere.

Also, quality assurance is obviously given a much greater emphasis at the Japanese companies. Most of the 2005 Mustang's issues could have easily been caught given proper testing.

EarlB · May 26, 2005

With the exception of my very first car (a '73 Datsun 610) everything I've owned has been Big 3 - and mostly Ford.

It would seem to me that most people with Honda's don't seem to have many if any problems. But as I said, I've never owned one - well techincally I did as my wife had an Accord when we married but I then proceeded to trade it in the next year on the T-Bird

Earl

Jenns05Stang said:
Earl,

I understand you frustration having owned 7 Fords - 1970 Ford Maverick/1973 Ford Courier Pick-up/1993 Ford Explorer/1996 Ford Explorer/1998 Mustang/2003 Mustang and a 2005 Mustang........

One thing I know when I buy a Ford is it will inherintly have issues. To understand your perception, I would like to ask for some clarification on this statement though:

"There are plenty of manufacturers that make cars that you can expect few if any problems from."

Plenty technically means: "A large quantity or amount; an abundance."... Please name the manufacturers that you are referring to and the vehicle that has a similiar cost basis. $27,000 - $30,000.

I am not being condescending, I am simply trying to get to see your point of view, as we compare apples - to - apples.

Thanks in advance,

Jennifer

jfischer · May 26, 2005

Jenns05Stang said:
"There are plenty of manufacturers that make cars that you can expect few if any problems from."

Plenty technically means: "A large quantity or amount; an abundance."... Please name the manufacturers that you are referring to and the vehicle that has a similiar cost basis. $27,000 - $30,000.

Acura
Toyota
Lexus
Honda
Mazda
Subaru
Saab
Nissan
Hyundai - yes Hyundai

All make cars that are less problem prone than American brands. Perhaps not with "few problems", but certainly with less problems than an American brand.

scottie1113 · May 26, 2005

So true, and so sad. Having said that , and as an owner of a 95 GT vert that I bought used, I'll add that for the money, the Mustang is still the best fun car value for the money, quality problems notwithstanding.

The most trouble free car I've ever owned was a 1986 Toyota MR2. Nothing ever broke on the car and it went in for service at 30k and 60k. In the 70k miles I had it, until my beloved ex wife drove off into the sunset with it, it still had the original tires with lots of tread left. Build quality and fit and finish were excellent. Someday Ford may catch up. I hope so.

It isn't in the Mustang arena where they lose sales because of this. It's in the mom and pop family sedan market where Toyaota and Honda are the clear winners.

gp001 · May 26, 2005

Just to add fuel to the fire.......

Ever wonder why cars made in America by non union workers have higher quality than cars made in America by union workers?

jfischer · May 26, 2005

gp001 said:
Ever wonder why cars made in America by non union workers have higher quality than cars made in America by union workers?

Yep. The UAW will be the downfall of the big 3.

Jenns01TA · May 27, 2005

I will post the links to the TSBs on these in order.

Acura http://www.alldata.com/TSB/01/04013032.html

Toyota http://www.alldata.com/TSB/59/045991as.html

Lexus http://www.alldata.com/TSB/31/04310819.html

Honda http://www.alldata.com/TSB/24/042401ax.html

Mazda http://www.alldata.com/TSB/33/04333993.html

Subaru http://www.alldata.com/TSB/55/0455av55.html

Saab http://www.alldata.com/TSB/52/04525253.html

Nissan http://www.alldata.com/TSB/41/04411793.html

Hyundai - http://www.alldata.com/TSB/25/04250732.html

All make cars that are less problem prone than American brands. Perhaps not with "few problems", but certainly with less problems than an American brand.

Ford - 2004 Ford Mustang http://www.alldata.com/TSB/19/041917bZ.html

Okay.. so here is a list of the TSBs on all the makes you stated. The list is compiled on like engine platform V-6... Have to admit.. You had me on Saab. damn scandinavian engineering... You didn't include Audi TT or Volkswagon LOL.... I did not compare prices as it has been a 12 hour work day and I am too tired. Jfischer. Please review the links to the TSBs listed at Alldata and then advise me of your stance on your comment above.

Thank you.

Jennifer

I have also owned a 87 Dodge Dakota and 89 Toyota Corolla GTS Sport Coupe, 1989 Kawasaki EX500 and a Suzuki Katana 600 - drove and maintained my mothers 87 Chevrolet Celebrity, 02 Chevrolet Cavalier....and the list goes on. Brand loyalty is not the thing for me.... I just like the Mustang. It could be a Daewoo....

topless beach · May 27, 2005

My 84 mustang gt and my 86 gt vert were great cars w/ few problems, and I don't have my 05 yet, so I will withhold judgement.

My wife has an 04 honda pilot, which I think is their 1st year of production, and it has had zero/no defects in 7 months.

It will be interesting to see what the car mags say when they have had a 05 stang for a long term/1 year test. If they complain loudly maybe ford will take notice.

gp001 had an interesting comment on union vs non-union workers. I would like to hear which makes are being built by each group of workers. I would also like to hear a comment from someone that works on an assebly line if there is anyone out there in stangnet land.

Jenns01TA · May 27, 2005

topless beach said:
My 84 mustang gt and my 86 gt vert were great cars w/ few problems, and I don't have my 05 yet, so I will withhold judgement.

My wife has an 04 honda pilot, which I think is their 1st year of production, and it has had zero/no defects in 7 months.

It will be interesting to see what the car mags say when they have had a 05 stang for a long term/1 year test. If they complain loudly maybe ford will take notice.

gp001 had an interesting comment on union vs non-union workers. I would like to hear which makes are being built by each group of workers. I would also like to hear a comment from someone that works on an assebly line if there is anyone out there in stangnet land.

Topless,

Here is a comprehensive list from UAW.org of the 2005 vehicles produced by them...

http://www.uaw.org/uawmade/cartruck2005.cfm

I am still researching the production, assembly and Mfg. stats on the "import" brands....

Jennifer

strokedandblown · May 27, 2005

All i have to say is do a search on the 03-04 bmw 745's . You'll feel lucky to have the problems your haveing. My buddy is a Mech. for BMW they had containers in the lot were they were loading them up to ship them back to Ger. Thats an 80k problem.
Im not trying to upset you im just saying like everyone else you gonna have problems.

Use the ground rule: IF IT DRIVES, FLIES, FLOATS OR F#%K'S RENT IT!!!

Jenns01TA · May 27, 2005

"The Accord has been manufactured for nearly 20 years at the Marysville Auto Plant. In addition to the Accord, the Acura TL sedan and Acura CL coupe are produced at the Marysville Auto Plant. The Marysville plant assembled 456,348 cars last year, more than any other plant in North America.

The V-6 and four-cylinder engines for the Accord are produced at Honda's engine plant in Anna, Ohio. The Anna Engine Plant produces more than one million engines per year for Honda auto plants throughout North America."

http://www.alldata.com/TSB/24/032401ax.html

Here is the TSB on the initial release of the Acura TL V-6 in 1996
http://www.alldata.com/TSB/01/96010912.html

And the TSB for the 2002 V-6, before their redesign.

http://www.alldata.com/TSB/01/02013032.html

If you look at the TSB from 96 to 02, there are recall issues that were inherit it the initial release that continued well into the model years.

My long-winded point here is that production issues are inherit with any vehicle. When you remove personal irritation from the mix, and do the research, you will find that shi*t happens with ALL manufactures. Plain and simple.

I am not placing my stance on my love of the car. That set-aside…. It is, what it is. Cars are made up of hundreds of thousands of parts and issues are to be expected.

Jennifer

"All i have to say is do a search on the 03-04 bmw 745's . You'll feel lucky to have the problems your haveing. My buddy is a Mech. for BMW they had containers in the lot were they were loading them up to ship them back to Ger. Thats an 80k problem.
Im not trying to upset you im just saying like everyone else you gonna have problems.

Use the ground rule: IF IT DRIVES, FLIES, FLOATS OR F#%K'S RENT IT!!! ".... Couldn't have said it better myself... Hahahahahaha..... strokedandblown....you said with soooo many less nerdy words.... LOL

jfischer · May 27, 2005

Jenns05Stang said:
Okay.. so here is a list of the TSBs on all the makes you stated. ... Please review the links to the TSBs listed at Alldata and then advise me of your stance on your comment above.

Every vehicle has TSBs - it's not necessarily a measure of quality nor does it mean that owners will ever notice or experience that issue. What I'm going by are the JD Powers/Consumer Reports type measurements of owner satisfaction and consumer-reported problems. In this area, domestic vehicles generally fall way behind their foreign counterparts (primarily Asian, as the European cars aren't really any better than the domestics, and are often worse).

As a for-instance, there are a ****load of TSBs for the 2002 Camaro that I currently own. It was made for about 10 years, so there's bound to be some TSBs (no recalls though, strangely enough). However, it's been one of the more trouble-free cars I've ever owned. Granted, I'm only a sample size of 1, so my experience is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

However, when you start surveying large numbers of vehicle owners about the problems they've had with their cars - the Asian brands generally fare much better than the domestics. There will always be the ****ty Toyota or the excellent Ford, but overall one has a much better chance at a trouble-free vehicle by buying an Asian-brand car. Sad, but true.

Jenns01TA · May 28, 2005

jfischer...Thanks for the discussion, it has been educational and interesting. I will concede on the fact that statistically speaking, based on volume of vehicles produced (Toyota, Lexus, Honda and Acura produced and assembled in the US), the number of owner complaints is less than the UAW auto group produced and assembled vehicles.

Caution should be taken when utilizing JD Powers and Edmonds in assessing owners satisfaction. There is technically no control group on this for independent analysis. The research and statistics are only as good as the data. I know of 5 05 Mustang owners who received a JD Powers satisfaction survey 90 days after purchase who have not replied. They feel it is a waste of time. ALL are 100% happy with their vehicle. Also, most surveys and report cards that are returned are of a negative nature. Dissatisfied people tend to file formal complaints. Satisfied people tend to ignore formal assessments and responses.

Consumer Reports uses independent evaluators, I trust their opinions and research.

Thanks again for your thoughts, opinions and input. I always appreciate a great conversation like this....

Jennifer

topless beach · May 31, 2005

Jenn-I see from your link that the Mazda 6 & Toyota Corolla are UAW cars-that's interesting in light of this discussion.

This debate on defects/TSB's is potentially endless, but I can tell all the manufacturers how to solve it to the satisfaction of 90% of the owners of their cars.

All they need to do is to create a favorable dealer experience when the owners have problems. Look at how Toyota developed their Lexus dealerships. They made sure the owner left happy regardless of the problem they were experiencing. They washed cars; they filled gas tanks; they gave free loaner cars. I realize the Lexus is more expensive, but there are many things a dealer can do to give owners a more positive feel.

All you stang owners w/ recurring problems--tell me you wouldn't be a lot more warm & fuzzy towards that dealer if all he did was a) fix the problem and b) fill your gas tank. I would be-I just want someone to treat me like I treat my customers.

Very Disappointed, Diguisted, etc....

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