Roush Water Methanol

mattch2 · Aug 8, 2005

Can you use a water methanol injection kit on a s/c saleen...Im thinkign so just not sure how it works with the intercooler or not... Any results if any from this mods on our cars? if it has not i may want to look into this alot more..just would liek to hear more opinions!

marcus95 · Aug 8, 2005

Very good question.

I have been on the fence about this for a while. Well, at least long enough to research the difference between the 'Mr Freeze" kit and the Snow performance kit.

As far as gains go, even on your set up a lot of guys are seeing 40-60 rwhp easy and some as much as 70! That's a lot of cheap h.p. I think the snow kit I like runs $399.
My pushrod with my Vortech with no intercooler/aftercooler would benefit most from this application. Injection nozzle directly in the tube after the blower and before the TB. The Mr. Freeze kit likes the nozzle before the blower. I have just heard a few negatives with that set up. You on the other hand only have one option for placement.

Go pick up the September issue of 5.0. They have a great write up on the snow kit on an 04 Cobra. That's just up your alley.

When and If, I'm going with the Snow kit. As far as now, my car just sits with family fighting over it anyhow.

mattch2 · Aug 8, 2005

well the snow kit is what I was thinkign off?:..I know most people say that the saleen intake is one reason the saleen blowers dont produce great numbers but also that the intercoolers dont cool it down enough so what batter way than maybe hooking up a water methanol injection kit... hopefully someone else can chime in on this

Mstng2 · Aug 9, 2005

I am going with the Snow Kit as soon as I save up a little spare change. It runs the pump from the MAF sensor and has variable injection. From what I understand it only comes on when it gets above a certain point and then increases with your degree of throttle.
What to expect? You know when you go out early in the morning and you first start the car and go for a spin? MAN it just rocks! Sets you in your seat. But then after driving in the mid-day sun or traffic, it just doesnt have that same snap? That + a little is what you get from an injection kit. It feels strong ALL the time not just when it's cool. The Saleen Series II benefit greatly from it for exactly the reason you said. The intercooler isn't the best.

mattch2 · Aug 9, 2005

anyone have any proven dyno numbers yet?

ddr1stang · Aug 9, 2005

mattch2 said:
anyone have any proven dyno numbers yet?

Here's some reading material

I just ordered the mr.freeze kit for my 94 cobra, sick of detonation so I'm trying
meth/water injection.

http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=665945&highlight=snow

http://stangtuning.com/showthread.php?t=2627&highlight=freeze

Mstng2 · Aug 9, 2005

mattch2 said:
anyone have any proven dyno numbers yet?

Snow Performance's water/methanol boost cooler...

Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords Magazine has a great installation/dyno article in the July '04 issue. The install was performed in New Jersey on a 10 second 5.0 Mustang featuring a 15psi T-Trim Vortech. Results were impressive with 493 HP made on pump gas, 549 HP on 116 octane race gas, and a whopping 575 + on pump gas with a Stage-2 Boost Cooler® using a 50/50 water/methanol mix!

ddr1stang · Aug 9, 2005

Here's some tuning imformation. After you install an injection kit you must tune to gain horsepower. More timing,less fuel

http://www.andersonfordmotorsport.com/
Click on Mr.freeze

marcus95 · Aug 9, 2005

Dwane,

Have you done any serious comparison between the two kits, the Mr. Freeze and the Snow? It's a tough decision. I have been bulking up on everything I can and I'm leaning towards the Snow kit. Lots of support and A1 customer service also.

I guess I'm still on the fence. I guess what really interests me is that not only can you dial so much more timing in, but overall, it's just safer (charge temps)

The only thing I thought of was what if the pump malfunctioned on a run? The detonation demons can come quickly and destroy any motor without a lot of warning. I know there is a low fluid level and active pump light led on the Snow kit but I dunno??? What do you think?

BoostedmaxPSI · Aug 9, 2005

I've been running SMC alky kit in my Grand National for about 5 years now. There is without a doubt a hugh advantage to running ALKY/METH or Water injection. There are also propaine kits available.

My GN puts down 433HP and 573TQ to wheels on pump gas without ever removing a single valve cover using an ALKY injection kit. The alky allows me to turn the boost up from a stock 16psi to 27psi. Hence "BoostedmaxPSI"!

The Saleen will recieve the same treatment soon. However, due to the A trim spinning a max RPM with the next pulley upgrade I intend on playing with more timing and using the alky kit to keep pre-ignition down.

I would suggest logging on to turbobuick.com and cruse the alky section.

FS

Mstng2 · Aug 10, 2005

Yea the Grand National guys use this a ton. At the track last week a GN club showed up and 98% of them were running a water/alch injection system. Thats why I decided to do mine. The results are impressive.

saleensc281 · Aug 10, 2005

I dont know if this is true or not, but I heard from one of my buddies that the water injection mixture can eat away the teflon on the blower rotors...is that fact or fiction??????

ddr1stang · Aug 10, 2005

marcus95 said:
Dwane,

Have you done any serious comparison between the two kits, the Mr. Freeze and the Snow? It's a tough decision. I have been bulking up on everything I can and I'm leaning towards the Snow kit. Lots of support and A1 customer service also.

I guess I'm still on the fence. I guess what really interests me is that not only can you dial so much more timing in, but overall, it's just safer (charge temps)

The only thing I thought of was what if the pump malfunctioned on a run? The detonation demons can come quickly and destroy any motor without a lot of warning. I know there is a low fluid level and active pump light led on the Snow kit but I dunno??? What do you think?

I am really going to use this as a means of intercooling. Maybe a little more aggressive tune and a little more power but I just want cooler air temps while under boost. I run a solid 11.5 a/f and still get pinging sometimes and am tired of it. I am fairly new to tuning but know with the pms you can tune around air temps so if the system fails the pms will adjust automatically for warmer temps (I hope)

Adding meth alone won't add horsepower you will probably loose horsepower
because you will be running pig rich so you add timing and subtract fuel and bingo more power

I almost went w/ the snow kit because of bigger capacity but decided on mr. freeze because of less things things that can go wrong. I already have enough of that.
Mr. freeze works with pressurizing the tank so theres no electrical or pump failure issues. The only downside I found was the capacity size for freeze but I guess I will just strap a gallon of meth in the trunk. I guess if its snow or freeze you should never make a boosted run without checking the tank first.

I am by no means an expert at water injection but I need intercooling and this seems like a great way to get it done

ddr1stang · Aug 10, 2005

saleensc281 said:
I dont know if this is true or not, but I heard from one of my buddies that the water injection mixture can eat away the teflon on the blower rotors...is that fact or fiction??????

I have done a lot of reading on this subject and there is some speculation about this but I couldn't find any proof.
If you go with the snow kit I'm pretty sure it injects after the blower so its not an issue while the mr.freeze injects before the blower.

mattch2 · Aug 11, 2005

well I know this helps cooling greatly but Im really curious what it can do as far as a power on the saleen blowers... here is a local GT that was dyoned and tested by steeda before and after with the snow cooler.. here is teh write uo

Steeda.ca's Snow Performance Stage 2 Boost Cooler test achieved instant results. Shortly after the installation and tuning of the kit Vedran visited the race track and ran an 11.27 @ 123.03 MPH. This time slip crushed the existing record of 11.40 by another enthusiast in the USA making Vedran's GT the fastest Stock Longblock 2V in the world!

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=5 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR bgColor=#f1f1f1><TD width="33%">Vedran's 99 2V GT

</TD><TD width="33%">Before Snow

</TD><TD colSpan=2>After Snow

</TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top rowSpan=9>Engine:

Vortech V1 S-Trim
AFM Powerpipe
3.33 Pulley
Snow Performance Water Injection(Car Quest Windshield Fluid)
75mm BBK Throttle Body
C&L Plenum
MAC Catted H-Pipe
MAC Pro-Dumps
03 Cobra Tank/Pumps
SCT BA MAF
Steeda.ca Custom Tune

Drive Train:
Pro 5.0 Shifter
FMS 4.10
Centerforce Dual Friction Clutch
31 Spline Moser Axles
FMS 31 Spline T-lok
Welded Torque Boxes & Axle Tubes

Suspension:
Removed Swaybars
4cyl. Foxbody Front Springs
5.0 Foxbody Rear Springs w/ Airbag (cut)
Boxed Stock Control Arms
Subframe Connectors

Wheels & Tires:
Weld Prostars 15x3.5 & 15x10(6.5BS)
165R15 Signets
26x11.5 ET Streets

Boost Cooler Stage 2

Includes Stage-1 plus:

1. An upgraded 140psi pump for incredible atomization. 220psi in over 500HP applications.
2. Variable Controller that varies the quantity injected vs. boost. This allows maximum power at all RPM/boost levels as just the right amount is injected at all times. Features include adjustments for onset boost level and full quantity boost level. (See Variable Controller in “products” for a full list of benefits).

Note: The variable controller replaces the boost pressure switch and relay included in the stage-1 kit

</TD><TD>377 rwhp

</TD><TD width="23%" bgColor=#ffffcc>415 rwhp

</TD><TD width="11%" bgColor=#ff3333>+ 38 rwhp

</TD></TR><TR><TD>369 rwtq

</TD><TD bgColor=#ffffcc>399 rwtq

</TD><TD bgColor=#ff3333>+ 30 rwtq

</TD></TR><TR><TD>11.94 qtr mile

</TD><TD bgColor=#ffffcc>11.27 qtr mile

</TD><TD bgColor=#ff3333>- 0.67 sec

</TD></TR><TR><TD>115.7 mph trap speed

</TD><TD bgColor=#ffffcc>123.03 mph trap speed

</TD><TD bgColor=#ff3333>+ 7.33 mph

</TD></TR><TR><TD>

</TD><TD colSpan=2>

</TD></TR><TR><TD>

</TD><TD colSpan=2>

</TD></TR><TR><TD>

</TD><TD colSpan=2>

</TD></TR><TR><TD>

</TD><TD colSpan=2>

</TD></TR><TR><TD>

</TD><TD colSpan=2>

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

marcus95 · Aug 11, 2005

Mattch2,

I can only assume that the Series II will respond in a similar fashion as the 04 Cobra tested like I said earlier in the September issue of 5.0 mag, page 97. It's a great article.
Mind you it's a Cobra, but Eaton blower, the car made an additional 68 rwhp at 11.5:1.

ddr1stang · Aug 11, 2005

Marcus,
Do you have any experience with this situation. On my 94 the act sensor is in the fender (by mass air) The idea is to make a run and graph the air temp before meth. and then make a run after meth. and log the drop in temperature. Obviously in order to do that I have to move the act sensor somewhere after the injection so it will read the cooler temps. What is your opinion on relocating it to the discharge tube, will temp readings be to warm and screw with ecc? Any advice on this. Thanks

marcus95 · Aug 11, 2005

Are you still running your stock computer??? That's why a lot of you guys like going A9L. You may run into an eec problem depending on if your realocate your ACT which you should definately do now that you are running Freeze.
Have considered going TwEECer??? Faster processor and it will know where you relocated your ACT ( discharge tube best ) like you said to tune for your best gain. If your are still on your eec4 it may not like it even though I think the ACT is good for 200 degrees F??? That is why this gets too expensive. I like to measure twice and cut once.
You can run your baseline, get your temps, but unless you are ready on the spot to make adjustments after your "meth" run you won't be able to dial it in.

Hey, since you are running the Freeze kit at least your discharge tube wont get busy like mine will if I go Snow.

You and I should be trolling the supercharger area more often.

marcus95 · Aug 11, 2005

I take that back.

I didn't notice you are running PMS. You should be able to do what you need yourself with that after you reloacte your ACT. I cant see why you would run into any problems after relocation. I bet you will be able to dial in a noticeable gain. And besides, you can monitor your A/F. I'm flying blind all the time. All I can rely on is my George Bush conservative tune from Powertrain.

ddr1stang · Aug 11, 2005

marcus95 said:
I take that back.

I didn't notice you are running PMS. You should be able to do what you need yourself with that after you reloacte your ACT. I cant see why you would run into any problems after relocation. I bet you will be able to dial in a noticeable gain. And besides, you can monitor your A/F. I'm flying blind all the time. All I can rely on is my George Bush conservative tune from Powertrain.

well I usually take the left wing approach, been through 2 sets of head gaskets (self inflicted of course) eventually you learn by your mistakes or at least your suppose to! I havn't installed the freeze kit yet, still getting my ducks in a row. I know the fox cars have the act on the intake so I couldn't see any reason why I couldn't move mine. I do have a wideband and tune w/pms but wanted opinion on the act issue. I hope it works

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