What Clevland Heads???

tbird187 · Dec 19, 2003

I am looking into building a clevor, and was wondering what year heads from the 351C are the best???

SmockDoiley · Dec 19, 2003

If you want streetable power then get the Aussie heads which are 2V heads but with large valves and small combustion chambers. If you want ultra power and high revs then get the 4V heads with small chambers. The 4v heads have HUGE runners, but not all have high compression combustion chambers(quench chamber). I dont think that the 4V's would be very streetable because the runners are larger than AFR 205's I believe. The 2V heads have a smaller more streetable combustion chamber.

tbird187 · Dec 19, 2003

these will be going on a 74 302 block that is .60 over.... what kind of cam do u recomend im looking to build weekend/strip car... so im not to worried if its streetable... but im looking for higher revs. i will have 4.10 gears and a t5 transmission....

65ShelbyClone · Dec 19, 2003

Unless you use the 2V heads, I dont know if 4.10 will be enough gear for a 302 Clevor. With 4V heads you'll be looking at 244cc and 280+CFM on the intake and that I'm thinking it will take 8000rpm or more to ge the velocity up. Persoanally, I think if you can find the Cleveland heads, you might as well use the whole thing. It fits in place of any 260/289/302/351W.

speedracer238 · Dec 19, 2003

SmockDoiley said:
If you want streetable power then get the Aussie heads which are 2V heads but with large valves and small combustion chambers. If you want ultra power and high revs then get the 4V heads with small chambers. The 4v heads have HUGE runners, but not all have high compression combustion chambers(quench chamber). I dont think that the 4V's would be very streetable because the runners are larger than AFR 205's I believe. The 2V heads have a smaller more streetable combustion chamber.

SmockDoiley is right on. Aussie heads are the best route. It'll make gobs of power and still be streetable enough to take cruising. Check Ebay, there is always a pair on there. But if u go the route of the 4V heads, there are 2 types of combustion chambers. There was the closed or quench combustion chamber head, which is the smaller of the 2, which i believe is around 65cc. Then there is the open combustion chamber head which is around 76cc.

I have a 74 Ranchero with a 351C 2V bone stock except Holley Street Domintor intake and 650 DP and it'll definatly get up and go for a big ass car. (PS it's for sale )

SmockDoiley · Dec 19, 2003

Trust, you do not want to use the 4V's for your small 302 because they would be reserved for 351 strokers like 392's and 408's. The 2V's are better for you and still flow great like an AFR 185, and they have bigger valves than AFR's. Also, do not use the cleveland bottom end because they are grenades with piss pour oiling. That was the catch with those things, great power and ungodly flowing heads with crazy rpms but a bottom end that couldnt handle it.

351crules · Dec 19, 2003

SmockDoiley said:
Trust, you do not want to use the 4V's for your small 302 because they would be reserved for 351 strokers like 392's and 408's. The 2V's are better for you and still flow great like an AFR 185, and they have bigger valves than AFR's. Also, do not use the cleveland bottom end because they are grenades with piss pour oiling. That was the catch with those things, great power and ungodly flowing heads with crazy rpms but a bottom end that couldnt handle it.

for rpm's over 8000 they have oiling problems but for street rpm they will be fine

SmockDoiley · Dec 19, 2003

The bottom end of a Cleveland is crap and will not handle 8000 rpms. Besides, parts for that thing will be very rare and expensive. Look luck finding headers for it too.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 19, 2003

Some oil restrictors and a good pump will keep the crank in a Cleveland from starving. It has an oiling system not far removed from a Windsor, but the Cleveland needs to rev higher than a W and it has fairly large 2.75" main bearings(compared to a 302, not 351W). Its oiling system wasnt a big enough problem to keep the Clevelands from winning races. And yes, they will handle 8000 rpm.

SmockDoiley · Dec 20, 2003

I guess thats why there is a huge market for them and they made them for so long(4 years).

tbird187 · Dec 20, 2003

didnt emission laws have somthing to do with it not marketing?????????

Tatertot · Dec 20, 2003

With such an aftermarket of parts available today it kinda makes it easy to build a Windsor. As far as the stock Cleveland short block being junk ,I have to disagree. It's hard to beat the cost for a donor core motor from a salvage yard to start with. I usually only spend $50 for a decent core. Do the usual block maching, put a $10 set of Moroso oil restrictors in, turn the crank, resize the rods and put good bolts in, use some TRW pistons and let it rip. I've split 3 cylinder bores in 3 seperate blocks in about the past 8 years but the current motor has been in the car almost 3 years and it has lived with 7800 rpm shift points with no problems. 10.70's on motor and best of 9.89 on the juice with ET Streets/exhaust.
Its all in what you wanna do, the Clevor will be different at your local cruise-in but they are out there. I'm working on a 408 Clevor, it should be able to work pretty good with the 4V heads. I've just about collected all the parts except for the block.Seems I can't come acrossed a 70-74 block...lol..
Using the 4V heads on a 302 ci motor is about the same as doing a Boss 302 clone. If your thinking about doing it I'd seriously consider doing a 351 based stroker. The cost for the build shouldn't be that much more since you'll most likely need to get all the parts for the 302 anyway.
As far as headers go, Kooks can fix you up or you can get flanges/tubing kit from one of the header company's. Just my 2 cents.

Tater

giddyup306 · Dec 20, 2003

tbird187 said:
these will be going on a 74 302 block that is .60 over.... what kind of cam do u recomend im looking to build weekend/strip car... so im not to worried if its streetable... but im looking for higher revs. i will have 4.10 gears and a t5 transmission....

Let's put it this way. I know a guy that built a clevor. He has the 4V heads and has a 7000RPM stall converter! That's even with 427 cubic inch! So you can definately get some revvs out of the heads. I beleve the guy was spinning to over 9K.

65ShelbyClone · Dec 20, 2003

SmockDoiley said:
I guess thats why there is a huge market for them and they made them for so long(4 years).

Even if they werent a good race engine(and they are), that doesnt mean they wouldnt be popular in production applications. More were purchased in cars than were strictly for racing. The 351M and 400 arent that great for performance, but stayed in production years after as a truck engine. The FE was dropped as a performance engine around the same time as the 351C, but was also used in trucks for years after.

Not only that, the Cleveland was introduced to a market that was already beginning to shy away from performance. The government wanted more fuel efficiency, less exhaust emissions, manufacturers were getting out of racing, and isurance companies were lobbying for slower, safer cars. The gas crunch was another nail in the Cleveland's coffin.

94_Teal_GT · Dec 20, 2003

I know you aren't looking to do a 351C swap, but Holcomb Motorsports lists items like full length headers and such for the 351C in a 79-93 Mustang. Maybe they can help you out with some of the 'incidentals' you'll need.
Way too big for your 302, but maybe for the guys building larger displacement Clevors. Holcomb Motorsports sells aluminum 351C heads from Australian Muscle Parts called CHI 3V heads. Intake flow is 321cfm and exhaust is 220cfm at .650 right out of the box. Great attention has been paid to port cross sectional area to achieve these flow figures while still maintaining excellent air velocity for superior torque and throttle response. They are set up to use 2.190" intake and 1.710" exhaust valves. Just a quote from the ad. www.holcombmotorsports.com

ashford · Dec 20, 2003

for a little info the 351-400m is nearly identical to the clevland the only major differences are the bellhousing which is 429-460. the heads are interchangeable the oilpan,intake and most periferals. and i think the cranks are the same. 400 clev anyone only thing about the m head is it has the thermactor stuff in the exhaust ports

Tatertot · Dec 20, 2003

The 351C and the 400M cranks are different......
SmockD......have you ever run a cleveland based combo? or are you just going by what you've read/heard?
Just tryin' to finger out why your so against a stock block Cleve and Stock 4V headed combo...
they work and are with-in the average persons budget.

Tater

SmockDoiley · Dec 20, 2003

Of course I do. I own more engines than probably anybody here which would include over 4 clevelands and 10 390's. I've got the full setup from a Boss 351 including the heads and intake, and a set of heads from a 70 Boss 302 and 69 Boss 302. Nobody seemed to post either when I mentioned I was building a 427 Clevor using a 400M crank, Chrysler rods, Chevy pistons, Windsor 351 Block, and 4V heads with 351 intake and Clevor intake adapters. The think is a stump puller for sure but I havent found anything to put it in yet. I'm thinking a 66 fastback with a toploader if I can find one. Those things arent cheap. I want that crazy retro trans am look and feel.

Tatertot · Dec 20, 2003

ok........

sooooo....you own alot of Motors and topend combo's. What have you run with car weight# and combos?.....You should has some killer times/combos without those no-good Cleve short block's??....It's not the idea of owning more engines than us Average Joe's........It's the combo with the car that keeps us going and the ET doesn't hurt.... ......To me it's no difference on the combo,,,Cleve/Weesor......as long as the owner is happy with the times and it fits his/her needs......Its all good.

Tater

Tatertot · Dec 20, 2003

Only 4 Cleve's and 10 FE motors? LOL,,,, Guess that makes you da man. then...LOL..(in your mind) ...
If your so upfront to bash the Cleve short block I'd like some info on why?.....
the stuff will rock with the right combo and juice...

Tater

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