What to do... Keep the 4cyl or mod the 97GT?

[bhuff30]

I was looking around at parts for the 97GT and obviously it isn't cheap to mod. The best hp/$ looks to be from an off road H pipe, giving around 15rwhp. Looks like PI head swap would be between $500 and 1500 (used vs new parts) but would bump you to the base 260hp rating of the newer GTs. Seems like other common mods like throttle bodies, cat backs and underdrive pulleys give disapointing gains at 5hp or less, True? I looked at blowers a little, and it seems for about 4000$ you can get a setup that would give around 320hp on a stock engine (9-10psi), but that seems kinda unfortunate when you meet a bone stock LS1 making that from the factory.

I currently own 2 non-running stangs and I consider myself to be at a crossroad for what to do with them.

1. I currently have a 97GT as my daily driver, bone stock and that really cool burnt orange color. The car still looks great, but T45 needs rebuilt and I'll be starting this project very soon so I can have my DD back. I'm thinking I'll throw on an off-road H pipe for a nicer sound and cheap hp.

2. The toy is an 88 2.3 mustang. I've owned it since 1999, when I was a senior in high school. It has gotten very little money put into it, and is in rough shape. None the less, I've run it to a 13.7 on junk yard parts. Since then, I switched to E85, which with more timing, boost and my other small changes should easily put it in 03 cobra territory of high 12s at 109ish. The block is cracked, but I could rebuild another engine for it easily and for less than 500$ or run a junk yard engine for about 150$ (block cracked because I used one of the newer blocks and bored it .030 over, should have used an old block since I bored over).

So here is the question... Keep both leaving the 97GT stock OR part out the 88 to make the 97GT more fun to drive, knowing it would never run the times of the 88?

On the 88, I could cheaply and easily build up another bottom end. Add a small shot of nitrous and some sticky tires to the current setup, and I could run 11s (actaully, I know at least 2 people in the 10s with this sort of setup).

Most of the forums I frequent love the little 2.3, so I wanted a non-biased opinion from you guys.

 

[Superhereaux]

so I wanted a non-biased opinion from you guys.

uhhh.... us guys that own 4.6L equipped Mustangs?




that said i'd leave the '97 stock and focus on the '88. i'm partial though, quick turbo 4cyl Foxes are just flat cool

 

[bhuff30]

Ok, I get your point. Maybe what I meant to get was an opinion from the other side of the fence, the opposite side of bias.

uhhh.... us guys that own 4.6L equipped Mustangs?

 

[mransr]

keep the turbo Fox...they are slick little cars

I've always wanted to make one an "open track" road race car

 

[Gearbanger 101]

If you want a driver, with great street/strip potential stick with the 4.6L. If you want to go fast around corners, and are a fan of turbo lag, then concentrate on building the I-4.

 

[twogts4us]

I remember reading an feature article on a turbo 4 cyl fox in one of our Mustang mags a couple years ago...with somewhere in the 400 HP neighborhood...? Man, I gotta like that train of thought...besides being unique, you spend less (4 pistons rather than 8, etc..)
My vote goes to the 4 cyl - show those ricers what a Ford 4 cyl can do

 

[twogts4us]

If you want a driver, with great street/strip potential stick with the 4.6L. If you want to go fast around corners, and are a fan of turbo lag, then concentrate on building the I-4.

Turbo lag? These days (when turbos can be mounted anywhere (including back by the rear bumper))...? You're commenting based on internet talk/chat rather than fact.
And why can't a 4.6 "go fast around corners"? In the end, for either car with either setup, it's all about what you want and are willing to do to get it. Making BIG power with a turbo 4 is not rocket science and can be very streetable as well as a track terror. Gotta give props!

 

[twogts4us]

I just found a great DIY story on a Fox Turbo 4...for those who might wanna check it out, lots of pics, interesting stories of obtaining parts and such...
http://msvorinich.itgo.com/testdrive/testdrive.html

 

[the98stang]

Meh...I'm not a big 4cyl fan. The 4.6 will have much more potential, but obviously it will cost more $$

 

[Gearbanger 101]

Turbo lag? These days (when turbos can be mounted anywhere (including back by the rear bumper))...? You're commenting based on internet talk/chat rather than fact.
And why can't a 4.6 "go fast around corners"? In the end, for either car with either setup, it's all about what you want and are willing to do to get it. Making BIG power with a turbo 4 is not rocket science and can be very streetable as well as a track terror. Gotta give props!

Speaking from experience, so save your flag for the newbs! I'm aware of the capabilities of modern 4-cylinder turbo, but the turbo I-4's in the early GT's and SVO's are far from modern and suffer HUGELY from a generally poor design and as a result of this a large amount of Turbo lag.

Furthermore making big power with a turbo 2.3L Mustang isn't as you say “rocket science”, but it isn't exactly a cake walk either. My buddy ran in the Turbo GT/SVO circles for a long time and had to spend quite a lot of time and money with ported intakes, heads, custom fuel, ignition and intercooler set up's only to be rewarded with 309RWHP from his '86 SVO. Not shabby by any means, but on its best day it was still only a low-13 second car. The power band at that level is horribly short and peaky, and its street manners were terrible. I don't car what internet "ricer chatter" you want to argue with, to make big power, with that package you need a lot of creativity and more airflow than the standard T3 is able to employ. And the larger turbo is certainly going to (and in this case did) increase lag with the small displacement engine. Experimenting with different inlets and outlets helped, but only to a point.

Yes, you could go completely custom with your set up and build a "track terror", but at that point you've no longer got yourself a multipurpose car. With the Turbo 2.3L you're pretty much limited to going one (conservative power levels and acceptable street manners), or the other (a high powered trailer queen). Its hardly a difficult decision for someone not completely dedicated to one form of powertrain, over the other to make when the need for a mix of street and strip manners are desirable and you consider the same performance can be had with a conservatively built V8 for a fraction of the work/cost.....all while still maintain exceptional street manners and fuel economy.

And what I was referring to from the “handling” standpoint, was the lighter front end weight of the I-4 would provide a more desirable weight distribution to the car. Which in turn, will make it better suited as a corner carver.

 

['13_ImpactBlue_GT]

Are they the same turbos that were used on the 1980's model Merkur's?

 

[Green&GoldGT]

My dad used to have a Merkur, and my friend bought it. basically he just changed the turbo, put on a BOV, an intake to the turbo, and cut off the exhaust. Its running around 30 lbs of boost and should make the same power as a stock PI GT and it sounds like an airplane.

I think you would get more respect when you pop the hood and have a 4cyl

 

[h8my408]

part the 97 and use the 5 lug on the fox easy to do and looks graet stops better to

 

[mustanggt3685]

I believe that it is all dependent on the amount of money that you want to spend. Speaking from experience with a 97, it is a bit costly to beef it up, as it is one of the slowest stangs every built (in stock form, of course). But it is newer than the 88 and sounds to be in excellent shape. I recommend holding onto the 88 for awhile if you can drive it on the street, get the t45 rebuilt or find a t56 or something, sell the 88 or part it out, and start modding away.

 

[2002BLGT]

Friend of mine just took his 96GT to the track a few weeks ago and ran a 8.52 @81mph in the eighth , car has 160K miles on it , 3.73s , offroad Hpipe, flowmasters, K&N FIPK, and 93 octane tune , the GTs have more potential than people realize

 

[bhuff30]

Let me say, I made my decision: I'll be keeping the 2.3 as a fun toy for beating up on NA V8's (exception: Z06) and taking to the strip. I'll be repairing the 97GT, but I'll also do a few small mods which help hp and may increase milage (off road H pipe, synthetic fluids in the driveline, drop in K&N)

The 4.6 makes a GREAT daily driver. I get 22-24mpg in my commute. I am driving an auto v6 mustang now and it's getting 20.5mpg It's a lot of fun and I wouldn't trade it for anything. The 97 has leather, a 5sp and a nice stereo, it's perfect for daily driving... just needs more guts to be a contender on the street.

Gearbanger 101: You are right, the 2.3 will always have some amount of turbo lag. My 2.3 also doesn't have a very usable power band... everytime I hit full boost in 1st (early as 3000rpm), the tires go up in smoke, and that's with a C4 where 1st takes you to 50mph. It normally gets hairy going into 2nd gear and doesn't streighten out fully until about 55-60mph. If I had drag radials, it'd be a LOT more usable

Last time I was out at the track, I raced my dads 06 GT in my 88 2.3l. My light was .2s slower than him, but it was amazing the way I walked past him before we even got to 60mph. I beat him by .6 seconds and 5mph in the quarter. Not like it was poor driving for the 06 GT either, since it's an auto and has no traction problems. I've since added at least 50hp by tuning for E85 (gotta love 105 octane in a turbo car!!!) and some other small bolt ons.

As for modified NA 4.6s... I ran into a 99GT one night. He had cams, ported heads, full exhaust including long tube headers, a tune and nearly every other bolt on NA part. We ran from about 30mph and it was LAUGHABLE the way I put distance on him.... and this was with a CRACKED BLOCK in my 2.3. It was the last race before tearing the head off to find the block was cracked. We stopped and talked a while and he was completely blown away. That's what I love about the 2.3. (Not to mention, it took only 25min to get the head off, how many of you can get just the intake manifold off your 4.6 in that amount of time?)

Fact: the 4.6 is more expensive to mod and get the same hp as compared to the 2.3.
To make 300 hp at the crank in the 97 GT:
PI heads/intake (600-1000$)
Full exhaust, including long tubes, mid pipe and cat back (1000$)
Tune (300$)
Air intake, pullies other misc bolt ons (500$)
So 2400-2900$... and it will still always weigh 400lbs more than the 88 (so how to add another 40hp for cheap?)

300hp at the crank in a 2.3:
boost controller (60$)
Front mount intercooler (300$)
Fuel pressure regulator (80$)
high pressure fuel pump (100$)
Turbo-back exhaust (300$)
I count 840$, and that includes a few parts that may not even be needed (fuel pump and regulator).
This is my basic combination, except I tried my hand at porting the head, intake and exhaust manifold, which is free, and I've got a little bit bigger injectors (but no tune to match).


Yup, the 2.3 isn't pretty and will never make the torque at 2000rpm that a V8 will. But unless you have a blower or nitrous, you'd better hope you don't run into me. After this winter, I have no doubt I'll be running 12s with the turbo only, and 11s if i have the nuts to spray it with a 75shot. (I peronsally know 2 people running 10s with even milder combinations on factory high milage short blocks).

The 97GT:

 

[Robs96]

Speaking from experience, so save your flag for the newbs! I'm aware of the capabilities of modern 4-cylinder turbo, but the turbo I-4's in the early GT's and SVO's are far from modern and suffer HUGELY from a generally poor design and as a result of this a large amount of Turbo lag.

Furthermore making big power with a turbo 2.3L Mustang isn't as you say “rocket science”, but it isn't exactly a cake walk either. My buddy ran in the Turbo GT/SVO circles for a long time and had to spend quite a lot of time and money with ported intakes, heads, custom fuel, ignition and intercooler set up's only to be rewarded with 309RWHP from his '86 SVO. Not shabby by any means, but on its best day it was still only a low-13 second car. The power band at that level is horribly short and peaky, and its street manners were terrible. I don't car what internet "ricer chatter" you want to argue with, to make big power, with that package you need a lot of creativity and more airflow than the standard T3 is able to employ. And the larger turbo is certainly going to (and in this case did) increase lag with the small displacement engine. Experimenting with different inlets and outlets helped, but only to a point.

Yes, you could go completely custom with your set up and build a "track terror", but at that point you've no longer got yourself a multipurpose car. With the Turbo 2.3L you're pretty much limited to going one (conservative power levels and acceptable street manners), or the other (a high powered trailer queen). Its hardly a difficult decision for someone not completely dedicated to one form of powertrain, over the other to make when the need for a mix of street and strip manners are desirable and you consider the same performance can be had with a conservatively built V8 for a fraction of the work/cost.....all while still maintain exceptional street manners and fuel economy.

And what I was referring to from the “handling” standpoint, was the lighter front end weight of the I-4 would provide a more desirable weight distribution to the car. Which in turn, will make it better suited as a corner carver.

You are right. I also have a friend that tried to build one and he ended up saying screw it and bought a GT. He never had any time slips or anything but he could keep up with the newer GT's (the 99 to 04 style) and outside of total customization, he had no where else to go with it. He stepped up to a 5.0 in a 1994 Stang and through mods, now beats the GM F bodies. He would never had done this in his turbo 4. I will also mention, when he was making the power with his turbo 4, it handled like crap. All the times I rode with him in it, it was amazing how bad his project really turned out to be. I remember the turbo before he started messing with it and it seemed like the car ran and performed better when it was just stock as opposed to how it was when it was modded. It didn't have any issues when stock but aftewards, whew!

 

[twogts4us]

Speaking from experience, so save your flag for the newbs!

What can I say? :Teh-Win: Great post and info sharing - you obviously have more experience than I with this...so I'll just sheepishly slide into the background and :Zip2:
My apologies!

 

[Gearbanger 101]

My apologies!

No need to apologise....looking back on it now, I did kind of come off a little smug with my response, which wasn't really my intention. Don't feel as though you need to step off into the distance because of it. This board is made of many different opinions and yours is every bit as important as the next guy. You do bring up an important point, that modern small displacement turbo cars can be made very streetable and powerful with the advancements in turbo and engine management technologies. Unfortunatley, most of those damn early/mid 80's/90's turbo cars nearly need a "back to the drawing board" approach with their design if they're going to perform the same way as their modern siblings to.

 

[2002BLGT]

Fact: the 4.6 is more expensive to mod and get the same hp as compared to the 2.3.
To make 300 hp at the crank in the 97 GT:
PI heads/intake (600-1000$)
Full exhaust, including long tubes, mid pipe and cat back (1000$)
Tune (300$)
Air intake, pullies other misc bolt ons (500$)
So 2400-2900$... and it will still always weigh 400lbs more than the 88 (so how to add another 40hp for cheap?)

looking at your budget , why wouldnt you just figured in some Ported heads and Cams into your budget , 600 for cams and heads will run you about 400-600 more than stock PI heads and that should get you up to near 290 RWHP which is only 10 from 300 and I dont think you would notice 10 hp with daily driving ......