Which Engine Would You Choose?

robert912005 · Sep 22, 2013

I have a 65 coupe with a 302. I have a spare 289 just sitting and will be aquiring a 351. Which one would you choose to put in there? Im thinking of getting a set of cleveland heads and make a boss 302 or stroking the 302 and making a 331 or something along those lines. Deffinatly not giving up the 289 because im sure they are getting rare. what would you guys do?

valley82 · Sep 22, 2013

I believe that the 351 with headers will be too wide for the engine compartment unless you cut the shock/spring towers. I can tell you that my ford racing 340hp 302ci in my 66 will haul the mail!

rbohm · Sep 22, 2013

i was faced with that very decision a few years ago. i had a 351w block with plans to build it for my 66 mustang, and put a 289 in my 64 falcon. in the end i decided to keep the falcon a six cylinder car, so i had two V8s for the mustang. i chose the 289, it is lighter, a bit more compact, and can make good power with decent heads and cam, plus it out revs the 351w due to its lighter rotating components, and less friction.

the 351w will fit the 65-66 engine bay with headers, but you do need swap headers, and they cost money compared to the headers for a 289. and with the good aftermarket heads available today, i wouldnt use the cleveland heads to make a clevor engine, they just arent needed these days. if you want to use them on something, put them on the 351w, and build that engine for something like a torino or 66 or later fairlane. or have some real fun and build it for a 66 or later falcon two door sedan. these cars have the room for a 35w/c clevor engine. at the same time stroke the 351w out to 393ci, use the stock 351w rods and stock 302 pistons for a budget 393 build. keep the horsepower at a reasonable level, about 450hp, and have a motor that will live a long happy fun life.

robert912005 · Sep 22, 2013

so many options.... Im on a very tight budget so that is why i thought putting the 351c on the 302....

rbohm · Sep 23, 2013

understand that the heads wont just bolt on, there is some machine work that needs to be done, and you need custom swap headers as well, so by the time you get done with the machine work and buying the headers, you could have bought a nice pair of windsor jr heads complete with valves and springs ready to bolt onto your block. same with a lot of other aftermarket heads. just because you have the heads doesnt mean you should go ahead and use them, its a false economy.

woodsnake · Sep 23, 2013

It depends on your overall goal for the car. Keep in mind, with a huge cam, you will need head modifications, custom push rods, etc..And then you will need higher stall speed torque converter, and a new ring and pinion, to match the power band of the new engine. Do you want a race car or a cruiser? Do you want to still be highway friendly? Then plan a build to keep the rear gear at 3.50, unless you already have some kind of overdrive.
Any set of used heads, should get new guides and seals, just because this is the time to do it. (while you are building the engine)
Comp sells complete cam kits, around 400 bucks, an engine rebuild kit will run around 450 bucks..Plus any machine work.
You can build a stroker motor these days for not much more than a milder rebuild, but again, you will have to upgrade the rest of the car accordingly.

robert912005 · Sep 23, 2013

I dont have any cleveland heads just was thinking of buying some. I found a website that says what i would need to do if i get the cleveland heads. i do not see any machine work to be done... I would like cruiser with a lopy cam and have plans of putting a WC T-5 in the coupe...

here is the link
www.themustangshop.com/clevor.cfm

woodsnake · Sep 23, 2013

If you are thinking about a stroker, you are thinking about machine work. While it is true that the heads play a really big part in the over all performance, I don't think you want to build the rest of the car, to survive a Cleveland headed 331/351W/393. I think the 302, with a .030 over bore, and a mid range cam, something around .500 lift, and a 3.50 gear will meet your goals.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-k31-226-3/overview/make/ford
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-17043-16/overview/make/ford
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fem-mhp174-311/overview/make/ford
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-80783c/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rmg-4901011/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/wnd-8020/overview/make/ford
Plus you will need what ever distributor you want to run, MEASURE FOR PUSH RODS, headers, 2 1/2 inch pipe and mufflers.

robert912005 · Sep 23, 2013

what do you mean i dont want to build a car to survive cleveland headed 302.... like suspension and gearing...

rbohm · Sep 24, 2013

robert912005 said:
I dont have any cleveland heads just was thinking of buying some. I found a website that says what i would need to do if i get the cleveland heads. i do not see any machine work to be done... I would like cruiser with a lopy cam and have plans of putting a WC T-5 in the coupe...

here is the link
www.themustangshop.com/clevor.cfm

Performing the swap requires some minor machining and a special intake manifold to mate the Cleveland-style heads to the Windsor block.

Read more: http://www.mustangandfords.com/techarticles/engine/30220_clevor_engine/#ixzz2fmZKVtOR

from your link;

[A] Coolant passages need to be plugged.
0.80 inch hole must be drilled on each head. Use the intake gasket as a template for these holes.
[C] Remove these alignment pegs.
[D] Use freeze plugs to block these end holes, if the heads have them.

Head gasket and block:

Head gaskets designed specifically for swapping Cleveland heads onto the Windsor block are available from Ford's SVO department at 313-337-1536. There are 3 holes that you must drill in the Windsor block, however, to match up with the Cleveland water passages. Use the head gasket as a template to mark these holes (3 on each side), then remove the gasket and carefully drill them out.

as you can see from TWO different sources, one that YOU supplied, there is a some machine work that needs to be done to mate the heads to the windsor block.

but since you are going to buy the heads, you are going to spend about the SAME money rebuilding the heads and getting the machine work done to mate them to the windsor block that you can buy good aftermarket heads that fit with NO machine work;

from summit racing, here are three aluminum heads, fully assembled;

http://www.summitracing.com/search/...c?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending

the AFR heads are sold as a pair, the TFS heads are sold individually.

and here are eight cast iron heads, assembled and sold individually;

http://www.summitracing.com/search/...n?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending

the prices on these heads are what you would spend to get the cleveland heads ready to bolt to your block, assuming you can fine a decent set of heads, and all the heads listed at summit racing will perform as well or better than the cleveland heads WITHOUT all the hassle the cleveland heads require.

woodsnake · Sep 24, 2013

"I'm on a very tight budget"
"I would like cruiser with a lopey cam and have plans of putting a WC T-5 in the coupe..."

Lots of us on this board, and others, have done this, maybe more than once. This stuff gets expensive pretty fast. The ring and pinion I posted are reasonably priced, but I forgot the installation kit that goes with, and I did not include a locking differential.
If there is a local mustang club near where you live, maybe you could go to a few meetings, and talk to those guys, and get a ride along. Yes, a Clevor is cool, and will run, but in order to take advantage of those heads, you need lots of compression, and a big cam.
It's your car, your dough, and your prerogative.
My advice is free, and worth what it costs....

robert912005 · Sep 24, 2013

i have not bought anything and i dont have the money to... I am here to get all the advice i can get about this subject and i am taking everyones advice into consideration.... I also dont have 1500 to drop on HEADS. unless someone wants to donate money or parts so that i can achieve this would be great thanks

rbohm · Sep 24, 2013

one more thing bad about the clevor design is again the heads. while they flow like mad, you are not going to find closed chamber 2V heads, and thus you engine will be detonation prone, and it gets more so as the compression goes up.

rbohm · Sep 24, 2013

robert912005 said:
i have not bought anything and i dont have the money to... I am here to get all the advice i can get about this subject and i am taking everyones advice into consideration.... I also dont have 1500 to drop on HEADS. unless someone wants to donate money or parts so that i can achieve this would be great thanks

since you are low on cahs, hit the swap meet and pick up a set of used aftermarket heads designed for the windsor. they are going to be the same price and have the same rebuild cost of the cleveland heads will without the need to modify things to install them.

Hack · Sep 24, 2013

Since you are low on cash I say you should approach the build gradually. Buy one thing at a time and when you have everything then put it together.

If your ultimate power goals are ~400-450 or less I would do a 347 with AFR 185 heads and complementary ancillaries in that car. That will give you great power, light weight, it will fit easily, etc.

If your goals are higher than 450, start with chassis improvements and then go either Dart 8.2 deck 363, or go with 351. Of the two I would choose the Dart just because it's an easier fit into your car. It looks initially like it costs more, but by the time you get done with all the mods to go Cleveland or Windsor those $$ will add up.

Don't do a crappy, cheap job now - you'll just be doing it again soon. I've learned that lesson several times on car projects. I used to always try for the cheapest way and I have often regretted it.

If you insist on trying to go the cheap way and don't want to piece something together, buy a complete engine from someone local. Expect they will have messed something up and you'll have to troubleshoot and fix it.

You mentioned Cleveland parts. I love Clevelands too. They aren't the cheapest build, but if you really want to do that look up T. Meyer on the internet. He has the 2V closed chamber Aussie iron heads you'll want for a low displacement, low buck Clevor build. He also has the pistons you'll need for a stroker setup, intakes, etc.

robert912005 · Sep 24, 2013

i understand that if you dont do it right the first time then you will have to do it again.... I was just trying to get the most horsepower for a really low buck... and im getting very great response... thank you everyone who has posted

65ShelbyClone · Sep 24, 2013

What is your budget or what will it be when you have one?

I say keep the 302, find some regular GT40 heads, a Weiand Stealth intake, 600cfm carb, headers, and a mild cam. It will have some zip and you could probably do all that for $1500 or less.

Just pretend you never had the idea of putting 351C heads on your 302. You can't afford it and they're not at all right for how you want to use the car.

robert912005 · Sep 24, 2013

im not sure what my budget will be.... probably whatever work i can do on the side but i had a figure of maybe $2000... i will probably be buying it part by part... So would say 351c heads on a 302 is more of a race type? Im probably leaning towards not doing it anyways....

rbohm · Sep 25, 2013

robert912005 said:
im not sure what my budget will be.... probably whatever work i can do on the side but i had a figure of maybe $2000... i will probably be buying it part by part... So would say 351c heads on a 302 is more of a race type? Im probably leaning towards not doing it anyways....

$2000 is a decent budget for building a good engine, depending on how much work you can do yourself. as for 351c heads on a 302, its not a race or street kind of thing, the 2V heads flow plenty of air thats for sure, but the ports are not too large for the street.

the issue is a cost vs reward issue. in the old days, was it worth the money to adapt the cleveland heads to the 302 when building a healthy engine, or would it be better to port a set of 351w heads and adapt those to the 302 block? at the time the cleveland heads were a good alternative, and could usually cost less than ported w heads. today however, finding decent c heads can be problematic, though they are still around, but when you add in the cost of rebuilding the heads, adapting the w intake or buying an aftermarket intake(usually far more than a good aftermarket intake for the w heads) and building custom headers, as i doubt anyone today is making for this combination anymore, it just doesn tmake sense anymore.

Hack · Sep 25, 2013

robert912005 said:
im not sure what my budget will be.... probably whatever work i can do on the side but i had a figure of maybe $2000... i will probably be buying it part by part... So would say 351c heads on a 302 is more of a race type? Im probably leaning towards not doing it anyways....

351C heads on a 302 can be made to work well. The "secret" to using big heads with low displacement is to use a smaller cam that matches the combination. That is the main advantage to big heads in a performance build - the valve train is less expensive and will hold up longer. RBohm did a good job explaining the disadvantages of a Cleveland. The main reason to build a Cleveland IMO is nostalgia. The 351C is a much better engine for performance than the 351W as originally designed, but now there are many aftermarket options that nullify the 351C's advantages. A Cleveland will cost more and gets you the most benefit if you're staying with stock heads.

Machine shop costs can eat up most of your $2,000 budget, depending on what you have done.

IMO the absolute cheapest way to get a new motor is to find someone selling a relatively fresh build at a bargain. Like I said before you may find problems you have to fix and you will have to be careful when shopping, but that's where you can really save some coin.

Which Engine Would You Choose?

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