Why are the 73 302HP so low?

[MONTTU]

Why no power ?
I have been on this case for some time. I have 1966 Mustang with 1972 302 engine. The answer is:
- No compression ratio, bad intake, no exhaust, low torque, no possibility to use aggressive cam.
My solution is ( what I am doing now ):
- Flat top pistons decked to zero.
- 1967 C6AE 54.9 chamber heads, light home porting, 10:1 CR ( found from second hand ).
- Edelbrock Performer RPM manifold.
- Headers.
- Comp cams XE262 K-kit.
- 500CFM mechanical Carter ( yes you did read right, not bigger. I have been involved with European cars and japanese motorcycles and best result comes when the carb is the smallest part of setup )

This is not maybe the best choice for maximum "hi-stall power", but I am quite sure this is the way to gain a lots of "every day" power. My car is anyway 4-speed manual and I am looking for violent throttle response.

 

[D.Hearne]

Even swapping on a set of early 289 heads isn't going to up the comp ratio enough for a better cam. The difference in chamber volume between the 73 heads and 289 heads is only 4 cc's, not enough to make a difference. Some one posted that they did a head swap on a 78 302 with 289 heads and made a difference----- sure did, but the 78 302 had flat top pistons and cavernous combustion chambers ( 70 cc's) Thus the reason the comp ratio was as low as a 73 302. To make power with a 73 302 , you first have to go back to the basics and fill the block with better parts. The crank and rods are fine for a build up, but the pistons and cam just isn't up to snuff to do what you want. No matter what you want to do to improve the situation, the fact is, you're not going do it with what you have now. Go ahead and swap heads, cam, intake, carb and whatever else you feel like putting in there with the stock 73 short block, but when some old geezer ( like me) in a 90's E150 (roller 351W) van out runs your car, don't be surprised.

 

[soon2bgt]

Quite harsh replys from "fellow" mustang owners.

"IMO, ditch the sidepipes. If you think they're cool you'll need to upgrade to shag carpet, pleated velvet seat covers, find the best AM 8 track radio available and trip out to 1976 all over again. But thats me, whatever floats your boat dude"

Not in a million years, the side pipes give it that look, your right they wouldn't look good on a newer stang, but they stay. And as for 8-track thats just lame. Didn't know you guys could be so hard on the newbie.

I have no info on the old V8's , thats why I came here. If my 302 can't be saved then I'll find another engine, problem is don't KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR. I also never said the S/C idea would be easy, it was just a thought. Where do I start to look for a 351?

If I got a 351, what would come next as in part names or models, or is there some formula to follow in building V8's.

I think the best idea would be to find a 351 and build it then drop it in, and sell the 302.

If I say find a 351 (good luck to me) would the stock pistons be ok for my goal, and would I still need different heads, carb, intake, and cam? to get the 300-350 flywheel HP?

 

[NorCal66]

No one means to insult you, just a little joking around for the most part. 351, good. The stock pistons should be fine, it's psi that will really hurt em. There closest thing to a formula I could think of would be this.

New exhaust, keep em side or however you want it, but make sure the engine can breathe, but a nice set of headers on there.

Carb...I thiiiink a 750 would be the best choice on a 351, but there are guys on here that are way more knowledgable and can clear that up.

Intake, edelbrock or holley are the brands most use, make sure you have hood clearance, I don't think an Air-Gap or stealth intake will fit.

Rear gears, put somethin a little steeper in the rear end, people say its the best bang for the buck mod there is...well except free stuff.

theeen we go into heads, cam, tranny and all that other stuff, but I'm guessing that will be a ways down the road for your stang.

Best of luck, don't get the wrong first inpression.

 

[soon2bgt]

I plan to run larger pipes through the side castings and get headers. How much should I plan to spend on a 351c or would a 351w be as good.

Thanks Derek

 

[302 coupe]

Quite harsh replys from "fellow" mustang owners.

"IMO, ditch the sidepipes. If you think they're cool you'll need to upgrade to shag carpet, pleated velvet seat covers, find the best AM 8 track radio available and trip out to 1976 all over again. But thats me, whatever floats your boat dude"

Not in a million years, the side pipes give it that look, your right they wouldn't look good on a newer stang, but they stay. And as for 8-track thats just lame. Didn't know you guys could be so hard on the newbie.

sorry, didn't mean to come across as harsh. Since there are several definitions of side pipes these days, I'm gonna hope that its just side exit exhaust where the pipe ends just in front of the rear tire-that to me is ok. However, if its the big chrome tubes running the full length along the bottom of the door, I'm gonna have to stick with the . But thats just me. So long as you like it, be happy.

I would recomend that you go to a Barnes and Noble, Books-a-Million or somewhere similar and buy a book on how to build a ford small block. There are just too many variables and questions to ask on a an internet forum and still have your bases covered. Most books will cover casting numbers and have descriptions so you should be able to get an idea of what you need if you want to use many stock parts. The Ford Parts Interchange manual and How To Build A Ford Small Block are both good sources of info. So long as you have a shred of common sense and do the appropriate research, old V8's are easy to work on and simple to modify.

 

[D.Hearne]

I just sold a complete rebuilt 351C for $700. You can make the power of a Cleveland with a Windsor, but not until you bolt some better heads on it first. With a Cleveland, you can skip that step, they had better heads right off the bat. Shop around for either, but don't just jump on the first one you run across unless it's too good a deal to pass up.

 

[Platonic Solid]

Tom Monroe's "How to Rebuild Small-Block Ford Engines". View attachment 524171

Since they're only $14, get Tom Monroe's "How to Rebuild Ford Engines V8: 351C, 351M, 400, 429, 460" too. View attachment 524172

 

[soon2bgt]

I found out it's going to be a pain in the a$$ to find a 351, so I think I'm going to stroke the 302, my budget is around 2,000 for all the parts, think I can do it, and get 300-350HP?

That way the weak pistons, and rods will be replaced with stronger componets

Thanks Derek

 

[Max Power]

Those are decent books for stock rebuilds, but if you are going to stick with a windsor, and want a perforemance book, get How to Build Max Performance Ford Small Blocks on a Budget, or How to build Big Inch Ford Small Blocks, or Ford Performance:

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/showdetl.cfm?DID=6&Product_ID=1605&CATID=3

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/showdetl.cfm?DID=6&Product_ID=2142&CATID=3

http://www.cartechbooks.com/vstore/showdetl.cfm?DID=6&Product_ID=1674&CATID=3

Those books should help immensely.

As far as harsh responses? Hey, you asked for opinions, you got 'em. There's no crying in Hot Rodding

(Hopefully you've seen the movie)

 

[Max Power]

As far as your stroking question, a Coast 347 kit will run about $1000. You will need to properly prep the block, get some decent heads and cam and valvetrain components, and carb and intake. I would bet about $3500 for a decent 347.

You could also find a 351w for far less. Not sure why it would be a PITA to find one. 351w's are everywhere.

 

[302 coupe]

true, you shouldn't have any trouble finding a 351W. You be better of with a 351 than a 347, especially for the money. That stroker will cost you more than you realize. By the time you have the block prepped, get everything balanced, and assemble the short block your 2 grand will be spent. Then you'll still have crappy heads and 2 barrel carb and intake.

Since you have 2 G's, this is how I would spend it:
salvage 351 in good condition-$500
e-bay 600 holley and weiand stealth or performer RPM-$300
good set of longtube headers-$300
2500 stall converter-$300
rebuild rear with 3.50 gears-$400

and you've still got $200 for odds and ends.

 

[dodgestang]

I found out it's going to be a pain in the a$$ to find a 351, so I think I'm going to stroke the 302, my budget is around 2,000 for all the parts, think I can do it, and get 300-350HP?

That way the weak pistons, and rods will be replaced with stronger componets

Thanks Derek

Not to sound like a smart arse....but we need to do a reality check.

$2,000 will get you the stroker kit and the machining to put it in.

It will not get you the cam for the job
The intake for the job
The heads for the job
The carb for the job
The headers for the job
The rest of the exhaust for the job
The radiator for the job
The proper chassis stiffening for the job
The rear end for the job
The tranny for the job
The u-joints for the job
The suspension for the job
The brakes for the job

As with any power build the whole package needs to be considered. If you want to build up the 302 to makes 300-350 HP....great...I'm with you 100%....but you need to address and budget for several additional considerations.

If the car already has a toploader...great no worries about the tranny...but if its an auto or a 3 speed manual...you will need to look at beefing up the tranny. What about the suspension....droppiong 350 HP in a car with a 40 old suspension is not too bright. Same holds true for brakes...does the car have a 2 chamber Master cylinder? Consider an upgrade to front disc if you don't have them already. Are the 1310s on the driveshaft worn out? will I break one the second I start with my new motor? can the cooling system keep up? Stock heads and intake won't feed a stroker...so you need to buy a new intake and either enw heads or sink $1000 into the heads you have to make them 'better' suited for the job. How about the body...what happens when you mash the throttle and those 350 ft/lbs twist the frame up on you?

I could go on for another 5 pages but I think I have made the point.

You need to sit down and

1. realistically set a budget
2. realistically decide on your performance goals
3. set a time table
4. research the costs associated with those goals
5. Compare cost of goals, time to complete and budget and adjust until they are balanced.

As for difficulting in finding a 351w.....its all too easy to hit a few message boards and post a couple of questions and then say you can't find one....go to the local machine shop and ask for a line on one....go to the junkyard....1 out of every 10-15 or so mid-late 80s large fords will have a 351w in it.

 

[soon2bgt]

thanks all for being honest about the costs. I was under the impression I was going to have to find a 351c not a 351w. They are not hard to find, it's justs will it make it that much harder to get to my goal. As for the tranny and rear end. Not sure what was stronger back then, manual or auto? I know I have to put better brakes in it. The 351 sounds like the best idea, so far. I just need to find one. I also want to do this over 6 months time. I thought if I went with the 351, I could build it, while I drive the car, and then drop it in. I would go easy on it until I got the right tranny and rear. How strong is the tranny, and rear? Will it hold up to what #or torque. I know you can't really say what the take in HP, so about how much torque until they break. As for suspension, I will get new leaf springs, and shocks. How good is the 351w beacuse I've been told the 351c is way better.

I will start to look for a 351w or c. In the meantime, is there any rebyild kits you reccomend, and maybe a few combo's to help me get started. I also will go and buy the books, as they seem they will be very useful in rebuilding any engine.

thanks for the info

Derek

 

[soon2bgt]

One more thing about cooling, how many cores are there in the stock rad, and will it be wise to go to an electric fan? Also will I have to put a electric fuel pump in, or will the mecanical one work?

Thanks Derek

 

[Platonic Solid]

Dodgestang said what I've been thinking through this whole thread.

It’s time for a major financial reality check.

soon2bgt, is that 54,000 miles you stated earlier on a rebuilt 302 or are you saying you have a 31 year old Mach1 with only 54,000 miles on the whole car?

Is there any rust and how does it handle with its current engine?

Please Post Pics if you can.

 

[nosaj122081]

As for the tranny and rear end. Not sure what was stronger back then, manual or auto?
Derek

If you have a 302, most likely you have a C4 if you have an automatic. It will bolt up to the bigger motor and with some hop-ups likely last for a while, assuming its not already romped and in good working order.

I know I have to put better brakes in it.
Derek

If you have a TRUE (check for the 05 in the VIN) Mach 1, no messing with upgraded brakes will be necessary. Machs (at least for 72) came with power front discs standard along with a factory 2 chamber master cylinder. Both the front and back brakes are pretty gigantic. Should be the same brake setup that Ford put on my 351 Mach 1, so I can attest you shouldn't have any issues.

I would go easy on it until I got the right tranny and rear. How strong is the tranny, and rear? Will it hold up to what #or torque. I know you can't really say what the take in HP, so about how much torque until they break.
Derek

Again, assuming you have an actual Mach 1 and not a standard sportsroof, the 9" rear end was stadard. Rejoice, don't worry 'bout busting it.

As for suspension, I will get new leaf springs, and shocks. How good is the 351w beacuse I've been told the 351c is way better.
Derek

Again, back to assuming its a true blue Mach 1, they all came with the competition suspension standard issue (staggered rear shocks on the high performance motors, left out on the standard 351 4V and below), so it should have no issues handling the power. I replaced my factory stuff however with 620's and 5 leafs and have no regrets.

Personally I'm a 351C man (unless its a big block). The W can make just as good power, but the fact aftermarket heads are necessary makes it a turn off to me. Plus the old timers give you way more respect with a C. But the beauty part about upgrading a Mach 1 vs. a standard sportsroof or the likes is alot of things DON'T need upgraded to go to larger motors.

 

[73grande]

ive got a 73 grande for with a 351c thats pretty decent already it needs a cam an a bigger carb an 4v intake an it would be around 420 flywheel i donno how much id sell the motor for but it moves pretty nice if u can come up with some decent offers or somthing let me know

 

[soon2bgt]

It's a true mach 1. the vin has 05 in it and I thought that ment it was a mach 1. It has all the stripes, and decals, rust is starting to appear, but has always been garage. If I knew how I would post pics. It has a two chamber MC, because I just replaced the lines, and bleed the brakes. I will look at the rear end, isn't a 9in pretty good to start out with, how do I tell what it is? And it's the yellow color, that I just love, and were looking for somwhere to paint it. It has been own by my dad for 28-29 years. My mom and dad where married in this car. And yes it onlt has 54,000 miles. I was going to check the comp, but don't know what it should be. It sounds great, except for a lifter, or rocker noise. Thats what I'm trying to fix right now. The door handle broke so it wouldn't open, and I fixed that and thw wheel the window goes on. everything, minus the sidepipes are oringinal. It's really weird though, because it feels like it has more power than 120-150HP.

 

[soon2bgt]

this is weird, It has all drumb brakes, but the vin is as follows

VIN# 3F05F187532

Body| Color|Trim|Trans|Axle|DSO|
63R 6B AA W 3 41

please tell me this is a oringal mach 1 even though it doesn't has factory disk brakes

thanks Derek