What a POS

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

Yeah the cam is really weak....i wish i had seen this combo before you went through the trouble of putting it together. When you call cam places, either 1) they just give you a "safe" cam to keep them from being reliable, or they just don't give a damn and give you whatever. When you call a cam grinder like Ed Curtis or Jay Allen, they're going to make you a cam that shoots to make the max power and torque possible...like the bleeding edge of what you can get away with (unless you specify otherwise).

An example...my buddy's 347...he called Ed to get his opinion of a cam and he told him the car was 99% street car/toy and might see the track once or twice. With that i expected a pretty mild cam...he got a split lift that's .624/.584, duration that's 236/242 @ .050 and 111 lobe separation. This thing lopes so hard it rocks the car at idle. I would love to hear what he would've gave him for a straight up race cam.

The cam you have now, the lift isn't all that bad for a mild 302...the split lift favoring the exhaust is a good thing, but there's not nearly enough lift to feed 360ci and those 185's, and the duration is extremely weak. My duration @ .050 is 240/248.

Bottom line, one it was a Mustang dyno so you know you left a little on the table compared to a Dynojet. Two, that cam is way too small for a 302 let alone a 360.

 

[95Vert383AOD]

What was the HP goal here??? Everyones right about the cam...But eeh Some AFR 205's would also help. You would benefit from the 2.08 valves and larger runners. You want to be making almost 300cfm at .500 lift. But then again you want a cam thats near .600 to fully take advantage of that. With that said the 75mm TB is kinda smallish for a 351+ motor. And to take full advantage of the exhaust you need something like 1 7/8 headers.

If you put Performance 302 parts on a 351 you can expect 302 HP. I realized that with my combo and am going threw the same issues. i made 265hp @ 4000 RPM and 497.3 TQ @ 2000 RPM. Ed Curtis recommends that i get an AFR 205 or 225 on my 383. He said that with the bigger head and the right cam i should have a streetable 525-550hp motor that will keep revs under 6500.

You aren't making HP over mid 4000 RPM....A bigger cam will get more air in there...but bigger heads and a 90mm TB will help too. On that i would get something with a lift of no less than .580. 351+ blocks like AIR and lots of it.

AFR 185 flows 267CFM on intake at .500 And never hits 300 CFM
Perfect for a 302-331...I almost wouldn't put those on a 347.

Remember this is CFM is per port
AFR 205 flows 291CFM on intake at .500 and is at 301 CFM by .550 lift

Whats this mean?
Well the difference per port at .500 CFM is 24CFM Multiply that by 8 and get a total of 192 CFM more on the entire engine.

Remember the 185 hits a peak of 277CFM @ .600 lift which you are nowhere near with a cam that lifts around .500

The 205 makes a peak of 310CFM @ .700 lift.

And the only reason it still flows at a higher lift is because Intake Valves on the 185 is 2.02 and the 205/225 has a 2.08 valve.


So in short get some AFR 205's and a cam with a lift near .600 and a 90mm intake/TB and you should see numbers damn near 500HP.

Chris

 

[fiveohwblow]

I not only agree with everyone on here, but will also vouch for the tuner. Best there is. Period.

 

[SMOKEDYA]

Ok well i'm taking everyones advise and calling the cam guys soon. Also if i go roller do i need to get where the lifters go opened up or will roller lifters fit where the stock ones are? REMEMBER this is a 1974 351w block. thanks justin you know as well first hand! peace



john

 

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

You don't have to go roller to get a custom cam. You can if you want, but you will ultimately be limited on how aggressive you can get with the specs because of how the special lifters fit in the engine. I would just leave it flat tappet and get a more aggressive cam.

 

[SMOKEDYA]

I'm looking in summit and should i get the roller lifters that have the link bars or without? If i get them without then i'll have to drill the block for the install kit. Is there any advantage over the link bar set's versus the normal roller lifters,as far as perfermance? Does the custom grind cams come with roller lifters?Heres what i'm looking at if i need them seperate.
Trick Flow Specialties TFS-21400006 - Trick Flow® Hydraulic Roller Lifters
peace




john

 

[white 89 GT]

Yeah the cam is really weak....i wish i had seen this combo before you went through the trouble of putting it together. When you call cam places, either 1) they just give you a "safe" cam to keep them from being reliable, or they just don't give a damn and give you whatever. When you call a cam grinder like Ed Curtis or Jay Allen, they're going to make you a cam that shoots to make the max power and torque possible...like the bleeding edge of what you can get away with (unless you specify otherwise).

An example...my buddy's 347...he called Ed to get his opinion of a cam and he told him the car was 99% street car/toy and might see the track once or twice. With that i expected a pretty mild cam...he got a split lift that's .624/.584, duration that's 236/242 @ .050 and 111 lobe separation. This thing lopes so hard it rocks the car at idle. I would love to hear what he would've gave him for a straight up race cam.

The cam you have now, the lift isn't all that bad for a mild 302...the split lift favoring the exhaust is a good thing, but there's not nearly enough lift to feed 360ci and those 185's, and the duration is extremely weak. My duration @ .050 is 240/248.

Bottom line, one it was a Mustang dyno so you know you left a little on the table compared to a Dynojet. Two, that cam is way too small for a 302 let alone a 360.

On your buddy`s motor with the FTI cam what heads is he running, I ask because my cam from Ed is not to far from his, but the intake is the side with more lift not the exaust was wondering if his was the same.

 

[white 89 GT]

John I was thinking these should also work.Crower 66335-16 - Crower Hydraulic Roller Lifters
With compression of 8.5 most off the shelf cams are not going to perform to there potential, so you may need to talk to some cam grinders as you stated earlier.

 

[SMOKEDYA]

John I was thinking these should also work.Crower 66335-16 - Crower Hydraulic Roller Lifters
With compression of 8.5 most off the shelf cams are not going to perform to there potential, so you may need to talk to some cam grinders as you stated earlier.

wow for 1/2 the price to!where the hell did you find them at on summit? well cool thanks! and yes i agree with you and 100% of everyone else on here i'm calling the custom grind guy's! OK a few more question's for everyone. #1 what kind of power can i expect at the wheels with my combo and a custom ground cam? #2Also how do i find the cc of my pistons??? peace



john

 

[fiveohwblow]

Ok well i'm taking everyones advise and calling the cam guys soon. Also if i go roller do i need to get where the lifters go opened up or will roller lifters fit where the stock ones are? REMEMBER this is a 1974 351w block. thanks justin you know as well first hand! peace



john

Also, I got my custom cam from Ed Curtis and couldnt be happier. I would suggest him as a first choice, but it surely never hurts to ask for multiple opinions. I got IMMEDIATE communication and even got a phone number along with the email. On top of that the cam was ground when promised and sent immediately. Great experience!

 

[mob]

Go with a custom cam, and you need to throw some boost on it. That compression even if it is just an estimate, is way too low to be running N/A. It is begging for boost.

 

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

On your buddy`s motor with the FTI cam what heads is he running, I ask because my cam from Ed is not to far from his, but the intake is the side with more lift not the exaust was wondering if his was the same.

He's got Victor Jr's with a Systemax intake. I've always said it's strange that the intake has more lift than the exhaust since most duel pattern cams favor the exhaust.

 

[white 89 GT]

He's got Victor Jr's with a Systemax intake. I've always said it's strange that the intake has more lift than the exhaust since most duel pattern cams favor the exhaust.

Well I was thinking that some heads need more help on the exaust side than others, could be the AFR`s and vic jr`s do not?

 

[SMOKEDYA]

So at this point when i get a custom cam. what are my other options for more compression? Get flat tops?I dont want a turbo or S/C at this point yes maybe down the road (next year) but not right now. peace







john

 

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

So at this point when i get a custom cam. what are my other options for more compression? Get flat tops?I dont want a turbo or S/C at this point yes maybe down the road (next year) but not right now. peace







john

If you have dished pistons, that's going to ultimately hold your compression back, but remember like i said it's not absolutely manditory. Yes, you'll definitely make more power with more compression, but i doubt it would be as much as a 50hp difference....if that were the case then i could just mill my heads down and put myself over 400rwhp. Since your heads are already 58cc bowls, i think flat top pistons would be the better option to get more compression, but you could still mill them down as far as 54cc and i think be ok, but that's taking away piston to valve clearance.

Right now you've got a lot of things going on that you need to sort out and put in order of importance and in order of what needs done first. If you're planning on going as far as changing pistons, then do that first. This way you'll have a piston part number to go along with your heads which is more info that a cam grinder will need to know so he can figure out how much lift and duration you can afford and how much compression you'll be working with. Ultimately the cam needs to come last out of everything you plan on changing.

 

[fiveohwblow]

John,

I certainly wouldn't recommend changing pistons every year as this is not cheap or effective. You have to remember even the gaskets along with your time and cost for everything is VERY high. By the time you do this a couple times you are on your way to a turbo kit from BG turbo or someone else. Either stick with what you have and suffer for one year, or change the pistons and cam and call it good. Thats my .02

 

[SMOKEDYA]

You 2 both have good points.85_SS_302_Coupe Do you think if i go with flat top pistons and use my cam whats the chances of hitting close to 400 mark. THEN if i deside to go with a turbo and am bordering of high compression i could always get thicker head gaskets. Question. i looked at the roller lifters on summit and compared them to the flat tappet (what i have now) for a 351 they both have .874" diameter so i dont need to bore out where the lifters go? BUT if i go roller i will use the link bar set up so would i still need to machine the block so the lifter link bars clear?Or i could go like the roller block set ups are and use the lifter keeper tray, BUT then i have to drill and tap the block.So for the next few weeks/month i will see and do reaserch research and more research and definitly more reaserch then i did when i built this combo,and run as i got it and see.My buddy still has my old nitrious system i sold him so maybe i can buy it back for cheap for now?But then my goal building this engine was #1 mostly to get the wheels off the ground and then #2 i wanted the power to be around 400.I went to the track and was discussed with my times,but then i had to run on street tires cause 1 of my wheels studs was trashed and my lug nuts for my slicks wouldnt go on.So i'll replace them this week and hopefully hit the track again with slicks and skinnies and hopefully yank em up? peace


john

 

[white 89 GT]

If you use the stock 302 spider link setup for the lifters I do believe you will also have some grinding to do to get the links to set flat in that block.

 

[TweekedGT]

The numbers seem about right unfortunately. You will not get a decent sized cam even with a custom cam. I have a custom Buddy Rawls (comp cams) grind and it is still small. It's because of the big cubes and low compression. You can't go lumpy, it kills the engine, at least with fuel injection. You either have to put a blower or turbo on the sucker, change pistons or suck it up and like it until you can do either of the previously mentioned. I wish I had my cam card here I'd post it up. I go to the dyno next Thursday so I'll let you know what numbers i'm putting down. It's a Mustang dyno as well. I'm not guessing very high either maybe mid 3's. This year it will be crap or get off the pot for me. F3 blower or rip out the engine and put some dome tops in. Here's my combo to compare to yours.

Dart 408 Block
TFS R Heads CNC'd
TFS Box R Intake
Custom Cam

 

[85_SS_302_Coupe]

The thing about a custom cam is they're not going to recommend a big cam with low compression, even though i'm making good numbers with a big cam and low compression. This is why i recommended that you decide what to do with the engine if you wanna change anything, before you go with a custom cam.