Progress Thread Seriously? Another Boosted Coyote Swap Build? - Still Slowly Moving Forward

[Hoytster]

I would like to add that when I drive a stick shift vehicle I am a heel-toe downshifting fool. It’s a shame that manual shifting is going away because I pride myself on being pretty good at it.

I hear ya man, both the girl and I have always looked for manual cars but they are getting harder and harder to find. I can't get a diesel superduty with a stick anymore and we had to stick with a front wheel drive audi to get a 6-speed. The audi is going to be sold for a newer Volvo R-design shortly (all auto), so this mustang and my 5-speed swapped 95' Volvo 850 T5 might be the last manual cars we have...

 

[Hoytster]

I feel as if there are more irs foxes on this forum than not......

Sorry?

 

[a91what]

Sorry?

Yeah I don't has da monies for that

 

[bird_dog0347]

I feel as if there are more irs foxes on this forum than not......

except we all spend as much time on jack stands as a turbo car...

 

[a91what]

I think we all do

 

[Davedacarpainter]

except we all spend as much time on jack stands as a turbo car...

I’m just excited that mine will finally get to be on jack stands soon.:zombie:

 

[hoopty5.0]

except we all spend as much time on jack stands as a turbo car...

Psssh, mine hasn’t been on jack stand in a year

 

[Hoytster]

I have the prototype for the hard tail mount bracket made. I decided to prototype this because I knew I'd make lots of changes through the design and building stages. I want this to look half decent and perform well so prototyping gives me the chance to cut, hack, and make this thing he best I can without worrying what it looks like. I also want other peoples suggestions before I finalize. I started WAYYYYY overkill on the design and worked this thing down to where it is now. I have a couple other changes I am going to make yet, but this is 90% there. I'm also tried to balance weight, strength, and ease of fabrication in the design as best as possible. Some design notes:

1. According to my calcs, you gain some deflection resistance by wrapping the frame rail with the bracket and bolting through the frame from one side to another, but this adds more weight to the bracket and makes it harder to install (and fabricate). Through bolting the bracket through the frame rail gains almost as much strength as wrapping the frame rail, so this is the route I'm going. I will sleeve the holes through the frame to eliminate crushing the frame rail and increase strength.

2. I will be replacing the rounded gussets with triangular gussets that go the whole way to the top of the back plate (the plate that sits against the frame rail). I was running low on stock and I had these around, so I used them. This should also cut a little more weight out of the bracket. Most designs I've seen only have two gussets which is sufficient, I just want a little more support in this area.

3. I could have just used some 5"x5" angle as the back and bottom pieces, but I think having the drop angled makes it look better. Plus, it's a stronger design since it reduces the "lever" effect on the bend and reduces the overall flat area that road grime and the such will collect. It makes it a little harder to fab gussets, but I like the look better.

4. Ignore my crappy welding on this piece, this is just a prototype and I MIGHT have been drinking when I welded this together. Might.

Getting the angle set on the bracket. If you want your bottom peice to set 100% flat, the back piece will be at a slight angle (it's not a perfect 90 degrees). You also have pinch welds and other things to contend with. This is why I am tacking everything in place on the vehicle.

Welding in the angle

Cut out the back section behind the angle and finish welded.

 

[Hoytster]

Sorry for the pic heavy posts, but since a couple guys are interested in doing this I'm trying to document this as well as possible. Once this is 100% finished, I will also draw up and post the dimensions of each piece of metal in case someone is interested in building this exact, or close to exact, bracket. Also, I'll have the prototype incase anybody wants it to build off of.


Testing the side panel/gusset that butts up against the shock tower. I was going to bolt through the shock tower but there really is no benefit that I saw.

Finished welding the remaining gussets in. As stated earlier, I am going to change these to triangular gussets that go the whole way to the top of the back plate.

Welded the bottom plate on bracket that butts up against the bottom of the frame rail.

Here is how the bracket fits against the outside of the frame rail. Once the bolt holes are drilled, additional weld nuts are in, I will bolt this entire thing to the chassis and then tack the IRS cradle to the bracket.

Here is the bottom of the bracket. This will get bolted to the bottom of the frame rail in three locations. Extending the front of the bottom bracket towards the front, past the other part of the bracket, increased strength of the bracket a little. I will also add one, or two, fairly good sized gussets between the bracket and the IRS subframe.

 

[Hoytster]

Here are the bolt holes I plan on using (look for the black sharpie marks). Most of the brackets I see use 4 (the two existing quad shock locations) and then two on the bottom bracket. I'm planning on six for right now but might reduce down to 5. I will be using the two existing quad shock locations and adding 3-4 more weld in nuts to bolt too.

These are the weld nuts I am planning on using.

So fire away, criticism is appreciated. I am going to pick up some steel in the next day or two and start making both brackets at once to keep them consistent.

 

[FoxMustangLvr]

Looks pretty good so far. Are you working with 1/8 steel? I'm curious how much NVH this mod will create.

 

[Hoytster]

Looks pretty good so far. Are you working with 1/8 steel? I'm curious how much NVH this mod will create.

Me too. From what I've heard, it doesn't create much NVH unless you are running aluminum differential mounts. I'll be running the MM poly ones so I'm hoping it won't be bad. This is 10 gauge, not far off from 1/8".

 

[90sickfox]

That is a sweet design. That bracket will be stronger than anything the factory ever put on a fox.

The IRS pulls down on the rear of the subframe and pushes up on the front when accelerating. Are you doing any mods to the front mounts on the car ?

I've had ideas of playing with how far the rear tubes can be brought in. It would be nice to find a way to bolt them on the other side of the frame rail....then a mini tub could be done ( all the way to the rail ). 315s would be bad @$$ on a fox with IRS, without having to flare.

I've never seen anyone make a bracket to the inside of the frame rail....would be interesting. Or the tube could come up right under the frame rail and the bracket could sandwich the rail. 2 x 3 steel square tubing could be dropped in through the floor in the trunk...then a brace could be added that connects the two across the spare tire well.

You seem to like different....that would be different...and strong.

 

[Hoytster]

That is a sweet design. That bracket will be stronger than anything the factory ever put on a fox.

The IRS pulls down on the rear of the subframe and pushes up on the front when accelerating. Are you doing any mods to the front mounts on the car ?

I've had ideas of playing with how far the rear tubes can be brought in. It would be nice to find a way to bolt them on the other side of the frame rail....then a mini tub could be done ( all the way to the rail ). 315s would be bad @$$ on a fox with IRS, without having to flare.

I've never seen anyone make a bracket to the inside of the frame rail....would be interesting. Or the tube could come up right under the frame rail and the bracket could sandwich the rail. 2 x 3 steel square tubing could be dropped in through the floor in the trunk...then a brace could be added that connects the two across the spare tire well.

You seem to like different....that would be different...and strong.

Thanks man. From what I worked out, the bracket itself shouldn't flex much, if at all, its the actual frame rail on the vehicle that will start to deflect before the bracket will since the mount is basically is acting like a small lever on the bottom of the frame rail. You're idea of modifying the IRS subframe so you bring the mounting point to directly under the frame would be ideal to eliminate this since now you are just have purely vertical forces being transmitted into the frame rail when accelerating (no lever effect). With a good cage design or some subframe stiffening, you would then reinforce just the frame rail itself to counteract any deflection. You will still have horizontal forces induced into the subframe during cornering, so this still has to be taken into considering. From what I've worked out, the frame rail itself will twist (ever so slightly) with a large side to side force placed on the bracket, such as in hard cornering. Being able to eliminate or reduce this twist is what I've been looking at. You're idea of a bracket that sandwiches the frame rail, with a mount directly under the frame rail, would help a lot with that twist.

I was originally going down the road of putting a top on the bracket to fit up between the wheel well and the frame, which would then get bolted through the floor, which would then get tied into my cage design. This still might be an option, but I'm seriously considering reinforcing the frame rail itself by running a bar between frame rails, underneath the vehicle, between the trunk floor and the where the upper control arm mounts are. Then adding some gussets between the frame rail and bar. It's tight up there with the IRS, but I "might" be able to get something up there which would reduce any framerail deflection when accelerating or cornering. Then I could keep my rear bracket design as minimal as possible so installation is a little easier and it's as light as it can be. Bolting through the frame rail also reduces this deflection quite a bit.

And yep, you have me figured out, I like to be different. I'm really going to over your suggestions as they are really good suggestions, I'm just not sure if I need to worry about gaining anymore wheel room since I am planning on doing the widebody stuff. But now you've given me some stuff to think about, and some encouragement that I'm not overthinking this. You might have just added a coupe more months to my build

Now onto the front mount, at this point I was just planning on reinforcing the torque boxes. In the back of my mind I would really like to solid mount the front also, but don't know what, if any issues, there might be with doing that. Having a solid rear mount and a bushing front mount just doesn't sit well with me, but I didn't know if there is a reason for it (such as NVH, stresses on the TB, ect). I haven't seen anybody do this yet.

 

[Hoytster]

Oh, and let me clarify on how I am figuring out this stuff. I am NOT a mechanical engineer, but I like to pretend I am I have access to AutoCAD Inventor Pro software in my daily job and have been messing around with it for a couple years. So when I have time, I roughly CAD this stuff up and put it through some finite element analysis simulations in Inventor to see how my designs react. I don't put the time or effort into every possibly scenario and design consideration, I'm just looking at this from a "1000 foot view" to help verify I am on the right track.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

And yep, you have me figured out, I like to be different. I'm really going to over your suggestions as they are really good suggestions, I'm just not sure if I need to worry about gaining anymore wheel room since I am planning on doing the widebody stuff. But now you've given me some stuff to think about, and some encouragement that I'm not overthinking this. You might have just added a coupe more months to my build
.

I have considered doing an IRS under the Monster several times, but always stop short everytime because of lack of real estate for big tires. The " it's your car, do what you want" contingent get real vicious when it comes to body mods on their beloved fox mustang though, be forewarned. I did what I wanted to the body of my last fox, and overall it was panned in public opinion forums..70% of the community voiced opinions that always started with " it's not what I would do, but...."
There was a wide body guy that was at MW '12 the same time I was...I thought the car was nicely done too, but the armchair critics killed it for the same lack of "normal".

Sometimes..being different is good with some folks as long as it doesn't look different. Small, cool changes like the front fender stretch, or the integrated 3 piece spoiler, or the integral air intakes that @BMW Rider did on that great car of his get raves,....but cut and bulge a quarter and see what happens. If you can tuck big rubber under the car by modifying the irs support frame, I'd do that in a second before I'd bulge a quarter.
( And I'll be watching closely if you do it)

But it's your car, do what you want to with it.

 

[Hoytster]

I have considered doing an IRS under the Monster several times, but always stop short everytime because of lack of real estate for big tires. The " it's your car, do what you want" contingent get real vicious when it comes to body mods on their beloved fox mustang though, be forewarned. I did what I wanted to the body of my last fox, and overall it was panned in public opinion forums..70% of the community voiced opinions that always started with " it's not what I would do, but...."
There was a wide body guy that was at MW '12 the same time I was...I thought the car was nicely done too, but the armchair critics killed it for the same lack of "normal".

Sometimes..being different is good with some folks as long as it doesn't look different. Small, cool changes like the front fender stretch, or the integrated 3 piece spoiler, or the integral air intakes that @BMW Rider did on that great car of his get raves,....but cut and bulge a quarter and see what happens. If you can tuck big rubber under the car by modifying the irs support frame, I'd do that in a second before I'd bulge a quarter.
( And I'll be watching closely if you do it)

But it's your car, do what you want to with it.

I hear ya, I thought long and hard before I decided to go wide body as I knew I would get some crap for it. And honestly, I'm still not 100% decided and that's the one reason I haven't ordered the panels yet. I really do like the look of a Maier Racing 1.5" wide body (not the 3" unless its a race car) if it is done nicely. I don't like fender flares slapped on a vehicle, if I do this it is going to be smoothed and integrated into the body as seamlessly as possible. I also wouldn't be doing this unless I can get a nice kit like the one offered by Maier. My overall decision for going wide body is not so much looks as it is functional. I can run some bigger tires up front and rear, and I can run the MM forward offset front control arms with a little more room, and the wider track is beneficial on a road course.

But I'll be honest. I really do this stuff because I really enjoy doing it and I could really give two sheetz of what people think. If I even get one compliment or recognition for the work I did, that's good enough for me.

You guys have given me a lot to think about and as always, I appreciate the comments.

 

[FoxMustangLvr]

I have considered doing an IRS under the Monster several times, but always stop short everytime because of lack of real estate for big tires. The " it's your car, do what you want" contingent get real vicious when it comes to body mods on their beloved fox mustang though, be forewarned. I did what I wanted to the body of my last fox, and overall it was panned in public opinion forums..70% of the community voiced opinions that always started with " it's not what I would do, but...."
There was a wide body guy that was at MW '12 the same time I was...I thought the car was nicely done too, but the armchair critics killed it for the same lack of "normal".

Sometimes..being different is good with some folks as long as it doesn't look different. Small, cool changes like the front fender stretch, or the integrated 3 piece spoiler, or the integral air intakes that @BMW Rider did on that great car of his get raves,....but cut and bulge a quarter and see what happens. If you can tuck big rubber under the car by modifying the irs support frame, I'd do that in a second before I'd bulge a quarter.
( And I'll be watching closely if you do it)

But it's your car, do what you want to with it.

What the heck is all that nonsense about Mike? Are you writing a "how to be liked by a Mustang purist" handbook? Nothing anyone does will ever get 100% approval so why worry about what other people think? We mod our vehicles first and foremost in a vision that we have in our minds. If people are modifying their cars to be liked by the "cool kids" then their not doing it for the right reasons IMO and they'll probably need to run and hide in their safe space when somebody inevitably says " it's not what I would do, but...."

The OP hasn't asked us if we think his car or mods are cool or not, he's asking opinions on Design & Engineering. I have a lot of respect for that.

@Hoytster
I think the way some have done flares, if for function comes to that, have done it very tastefully. I'm sure you know of Matt Farrah by now, his car is very nice and performs very well.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYlyQqNr1Ac


This guy actually has done some cool things with his IRS swapped Drift Mustang. I don't approve of some of his techniques but I can respect the guy for straying away from the norm.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BViGUGeDTas&t=391s

 

[FoxMustangLvr]

I'll add one more thing that I've learned lately. Best corning control requires a "square" wheel setup. By that I mean whatever you run up front you need to have in the rear. Same width wheels and tires all around. I say that because if you can only fit a 17x9 with a 275 tire up front then that's the widest you should run in the rear. Having narrower wheels up front and wider in the rear will make for a loose front end because the rear will have more grip. So don't get too carried away with tire clearance in the back because it's limited by what you run up front. This of course depends on how serious you want to hook in turns.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

The OP hasn't asked us if we think his car or mods are cool or not, he's asking opinions on Design & Engineering. I have a lot of respect for that

But................that's what I was offering...an opinion on design and engineering.

My opinion is directly related to how I and the rest of the public will view a modification...When talking about how to accommodate a wide tire when forced to because of lack of space under the car....flares, or to the larger extreme, an IMSA style widened rear has always been killed by the majority of people who comment.
Obviously, you are a live and let live kinda guy, and you'd never criticize somebodies choice in design, aesthetics, or orange color choice,...but for every one of you, there's another dozen that'll jump on somebody because they didn't do this, or chose to do that .

I was just telling the guy what I thought he might consider doing in lieu of that, not whether it would be "cool" or not.