Progress Thread 1963 Falcor GT?

slipkid269 · Jun 26, 2021

I am waying the options for my recent 63' Falcon purchase. The H.O swapped car has pretty bad surge and stall issues when cold as described elsewhere. What I think my options are, to get the computer and efi to work harmoniously, go with a Holley or Fitech system. Or as the title states, go with a carb.
I am good with carbs thats not an issue. Doesn't scare me. But..can it be done?
I have seen some videos and a few posts about it but none from what I would consider knowledgeable sources. So I ask here. Is it doable?
Basicly I kinda figured the heads would be different or the lower manifold would be of different proportions. Kinda messes my mind up thinking they never changed that.
So I guess to do it I need a intake, carb and a different distributor. And air cleaner.
So...is this correct? It would be the more affordable option if getting the stock efi working doesn't happen. Plus ALL those wires go bye bye!

slow84lx · Jun 26, 2021

It has been done many times. However, you are far ahead to just follow the checklist and fix the efi. Much cheaper also.

90sickfox · Jun 27, 2021

You'll be happier with a fixed EFI car. There's a reason manufacturers went away from carbs. A carburetor isn't a really hard swap but you need more stuff....like a low pressure fuel pump and regulator. A 63 Falcon is a carbureted car so it wouldn't look odd. The camshaft in a HO engine is different than a carbed one so the gear on the ( vacuum advanced ) distributor will need to be changed.

Ryuk · Jun 27, 2021

There's also a reason why old car people spend a grand on the Holley Sniper, etc.

FI > carb

slipkid269 · Jun 27, 2021

Great! The answers I was looking for.

Mostly I am making sure I'm not wasting my time beating a dead horse with this setup and there is light at the end of the tunnel. I have been working my way through the surge list. It's been raining non stop here in the mitten state for the last week and more coming in the future! Gives me lots of time to ask questions and read to get my forward path mapped out. Last night I ordered a headlight switch and dimmer trying to clear up the rats nest under the dash solid then move to the engine.

I do have a garage but it is small and full of tools. That's another project. All this rain has changed my list to do and moved working on the engine down and re-arranging the garage up! One thing about it I found all the leaks from the old weatherstripping in the car! Would not make a good boat. Storms keep blowing off my covers, this situation needs rectified.

slow84lx · Jun 27, 2021

If you have some time to spend reading there is a lot to learn about the Mustang drivetrain in this thread.

Progress Thread - Technical Thread/how-to Index

Guys, if "that should be a sticky," then please reply to this thread with the link to your suggestion and why you think it should be added. How to determine if a thread should be included: - Does the topic address a common fox 5.0 owner's needs? / Is it a frequently asked question? / Is it...

www.stangnet.com

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 27, 2021

Well of course it’s doable. Of the few that are here that still embrace a carb as a plausible option, I’ll venture a guess that I’m the only one that put one on a 2v 4.6

It’s the simplest, least pain in the ass solution w/ zero required sensors to keep it in check. The only thing i see guys do when changing over to, or using a carb that I think is wrong, is that they’ll use a high pressure f.i. pump on a carburetor that only needs to see 5-7 psi. They think they can buy a non return regulator, and “ choke” a pump capable of 60 psi or higher, down to that, and at the same time use standard pressure rubber fuel hose the entire length of the fuel system to supply the carb.
Talk about playing with matches.

If you have experience with a carb, then you’re more than halfway there. You already have guessed what additional stuff you’ll need. Depending on what external pump is currently installed, you may be able to use it. Additionally, you’ll need a regulator if that pump exceeds the 5-7 psi the carb requires.

slipkid269 · Jun 27, 2021

slow84lx said:
If you have some time to spend reading there is a lot to learn about the Mustang drivetrain in this thread.

Progress Thread - Technical Thread/how-to Index

Guys, if "that should be a sticky," then please reply to this thread with the link to your suggestion and why you think it should be added. How to determine if a thread should be included: - Does the topic address a common fox 5.0 owner's needs? / Is it a frequently asked question? / Is it...

www.stangnet.com

Hey thanks! Don't always find the good stuff in search or use the wrong key words. Will be reading this.

slipkid269 · Jun 27, 2021

CarMichael Angelo said:
Well of course it’s doable. Of the few that are here that still embrace a carb as a plausible option, I’ll venture a guess that I’m the only one that put one on a 2v 4.6

It’s the simplest, least pain in the ass solution w/ zero required sensors to keep it in check. The only thing i see guys do when changing over to, or using a carb that I think is wrong, is that they’ll use a high pressure f.i. pump on a carburetor that only needs to see 5-7 psi. They think they can buy a non return regulator, and “ choke” a pump capable of 60 psi or higher, down to that, and at the same time use standard pressure rubber fuel hose the entire length of the fuel system to supply the carb.
Talk about playing with matches.

If you have experience with a carb, then you’re more than halfway there. You already have guessed what additional stuff you’ll need. Depending on what external pump is currently installed, you may be able to use it. Additionally, you’ll need a regulator if that pump exceeds the 5-7 psi the carb requires.

WOW What nice work, clean and mean. Really unique. Gotta go see if you have more pics....poof!

p.s. I got side tracked by the pic, thanks for the info!

jrichker · Jun 28, 2021

slipkid269 said:
I am waying the options for my recent 63' Falcon purchase. The H.O swapped car has pretty bad surge and stall issues when cold as described elsewhere. What I think my options are, to get the computer and efi to work harmoniously, go with a Holley or Fitech system. Or as the title states, go with a carb.
I am good with carbs thats not an issue. Doesn't scare me. But..can it be done?
I have seen some videos and a few posts about it but none from what I would consider knowledgeable sources. So I ask here. Is it doable?
Basicly I kinda figured the heads would be different or the lower manifold would be of different proportions. Kinda messes my mind up thinking they never changed that.
So I guess to do it I need a intake, carb and a different distributor. And air cleaner.
So...is this correct? It would be the more affordable option if getting the stock efi working doesn't happen. Plus ALL those wires go bye bye!

Here's a book that will get you started with how the Ford electronic engine control or "computer" works.
Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control 1988-1993 by Charles Probst: ISBN 0-8376-0301-3. See the link below for vendor, price and availability
https://www.google.com/search?q=ford+fuel+injection+&+electronic+engine+control+pdf&sxsrf=ALeKk005Ob4abX8nWnbpgW4b1hHIOwGMzQ:1624893444667&ei=BOjZYNCEKNKj5NoP1s-U6Ao&oq=Ford+Fuel+Injection+&+Electronic+Engine+Control+&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADICCAAyBggAEBYQHkoECEEYAFCS-3NYkvtzYI2ZdGgAcAJ4AIAB5AGIAawCkgEFMS4wLjGYAQCgAQKgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6wAEB&sclient=gws-wiz&safe=active&ssui=on

Select books and then select search. Use the ISBN number (without dashes or spaces) to do a search Use the ISBN number and your local library can get you a loaner copy for free. Only thing is you are limited to keeping the book for two weeks. It is very good, and I found it to be very helpful.

Computer system differences in 86-95 Mustangs.

Revised 15-Jan-2018 to add requirements for larger fuel system components to support large changes in airflow through the engine.

All 5.0 foxbody engines from 86-95 are OBDI

OBD1 comes in Speed Density and Mass Air Flow versions. It differs from OBDII in that diagnostic data cannot be streamed through the diagnostic port in a real time mode. The diagnostic data is stored in volatile memory and dumped on command by an external jumper or code reader connected to the computer’s diagnostic port. Watching the Check Engine Light, an external test light or voltmeter are all that is need to dump the codes on an OBDI system. An OBDI code reader can be used, but it isn’t an absolute necessity.

ODBII is capable of streaming data through the diagnostic port in real time mode. It requires a code reader that handles the OBDII data format. No code reader, no way of knowing what the codes are. The plus is you can watch changes in sensor data as they happen, and use the information to plan changes in the computer's program. OBDI requires a laptop & some specialized hardware to do the same thing.

Both OBDI & OBDII have adaptive learning to accommodate changes in sensor output, so as the sensors and airflow values change, the computer adjusts for them. Mass Air systems have a greater range of adaptive learning than Speed Density.

Speed Density uses Manifold vacuum (MAP), Throttle position (TPS) and RPM, & Air Temperature (ACT) to guess how much air the engine is pulling in. Then it uses all of them plus the O2 and ECT sensors to calculate the air/fuel mixture. It is dependent on steady manifold vacuum and minimal changes in airflow from the stock engine configuration to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio. Change the airflow or vacuum too much and the computer can't compensate for the changes, and does not run well. Forget about putting a supercharger, turbocharger or monster stroker crank in a Speed Density engine, because the stock computer tune won’t handle it. Every time you seriously change the airflow through the engine, you need a new custom burned chip to make the engine run at peak performance. Most aftermarket cams will not work well with Speed Density, and that includes the Ford letter cams.

Mass Air uses a Mass Air Flow meter (MAF) to actually measure how much air is being pulled into the engine. The computer uses this information and inputs from the O2, TPS, ACT, ECT, RPM and Barometric Pressure (Baro) sensors to calculate the proper air/fuel ratio. It is very tolerant of changes in airflow and vacuum and tolerates wild cams, high flowing heads, and changes in displacement with minimal difficulties. Just remember that large changes in airflow require more fuel than the stock fuel system can deliver. At that point, you will need larger injectors and a larger fuel pump to make the engine run like it is supposed to. Larger injectors can be used with either an aftermarket calibrated MAF or a custom dyno tune. This makes it possible to use the stock computer with engine displacements from 302-408 cu in, and make many modifications without a custom dyno tune chip. Put a new intake manifold on your 331 stroker and the computer figures out how much more fuel to deliver without having to have a new chip burned to accommodate the extra airflow.

The EFI will tell you what's wrong most of the time with just a simple dump of the codes.

EFI RULES on the street for a car that is driven in all kinds of weather, up and down mountains and gets great gas mileage. EFI will make just as much power as a carb and be easier to drive on the street. If isn't hard to tune if you know what you are doing.

There isn't a carb made without computer assist that can do all those things as well as EFI can. The only possible exception would be the IDA or DCOE Webers which cost major $$$ - like $3000 for 4 each IDA 48's and a manifold.

Surging idle - here's the fix... You guys with idle/stall problems could save a lot of time chasing your tails if you would go through the [URL=" http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=698148"]Surging Idle Checklist[/URL]. Over 50 different people contributed information to it. The first two posts have all the fixes, and steps through the how to find and fix your idle problems without spending a lot of time and money. It includes how to dump the computer codes quickly and simply as one of the first steps. I continue to update it as more people post fixes or ask questions. You can post questions to that sticky and have your name and idle problem recognized. The guys with original problems and fixes get their posts added to the main fix. It's free, I don't get anything for the use of it except knowing I helped a fellow Mustang enthusiast with his car. At last check, it had more than 250,000 hits, which indicates it does help fix idle problems quickly and inexpensively.

slipkid269 · Jun 29, 2021

Well with everybody's help and a lot of reading I've decided to stick with the stock efi. I learned it will do what I need. It can handle some basic mods beings it has the post 1988 computer. This will work good for me because I just want it to be a dependable driver most of all.

The biggest thing I needed to learn is that the stock efi is ok with changes and that the changes done to it weren't causing the surge issues I bought it with. It's good to know the computer is a non issue. So that's off the check list, and my accountant gave a sigh of relief knowing we don't have to spend another grand or so just to get it to run decent.

Onward H.O. Next is looking into the clutch before I do the surge list. To make sure that when I work through the list the end results aren't hindered by whatever is going on with those switches. It has no clutch safety switch or neutral sensing switch that Dan02gt pointed out will make it surge and run like crap. Thanks for your replies and the Falcon GT project advances forward!

slipkid269 · Jun 29, 2021

jrichker said:
Here's a book that will get you started with how the Ford electronic engine control or "computer" works.
Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control 1988-1993 by Charles Probst: ISBN 0-8376-0301-3. See the link below for vendor, price and availability
https://www.google.com/search?q=ford+fuel+injection+&+electronic+engine+control+pdf&sxsrf=ALeKk005Ob4abX8nWnbpgW4b1hHIOwGMzQ:1624893444667&ei=BOjZYNCEKNKj5NoP1s-U6Ao&oq=Ford+Fuel+Injection+&+Electronic+Engine+Control+&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADICCAAyBggAEBYQHkoECEEYAFCS-3NYkvtzYI2ZdGgAcAJ4AIAB5AGIAawCkgEFMS4wLjGYAQCgAQKgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6wAEB&sclient=gws-wiz&safe=active&ssui=on

Select books and then select search. Use the ISBN number (without dashes or spaces) to do a search Use the ISBN number and your local library can get you a loaner copy for free. Only thing is you are limited to keeping the book for two weeks. It is very good, and I found it to be very helpful.

Computer system differences in 86-95 Mustangs.

Revised 15-Jan-2018 to add requirements for larger fuel system components to support large changes in airflow through the engine.

All 5.0 foxbody engines from 86-95 are OBDI

OBD1 comes in Speed Density and Mass Air Flow versions. It differs from OBDII in that diagnostic data cannot be streamed through the diagnostic port in a real time mode. The diagnostic data is stored in volatile memory and dumped on command by an external jumper or code reader connected to the computer’s diagnostic port. Watching the Check Engine Light, an external test light or voltmeter are all that is need to dump the codes on an OBDI system. An OBDI code reader can be used, but it isn’t an absolute necessity.

ODBII is capable of streaming data through the diagnostic port in real time mode. It requires a code reader that handles the OBDII data format. No code reader, no way of knowing what the codes are. The plus is you can watch changes in sensor data as they happen, and use the information to plan changes in the computer's program. OBDI requires a laptop & some specialized hardware to do the same thing.

Both OBDI & OBDII have adaptive learning to accommodate changes in sensor output, so as the sensors and airflow values change, the computer adjusts for them. Mass Air systems have a greater range of adaptive learning than Speed Density.

Speed Density uses Manifold vacuum (MAP), Throttle position (TPS) and RPM, & Air Temperature (ACT) to guess how much air the engine is pulling in. Then it uses all of them plus the O2 and ECT sensors to calculate the air/fuel mixture. It is dependent on steady manifold vacuum and minimal changes in airflow from the stock engine configuration to maintain the proper air/fuel ratio. Change the airflow or vacuum too much and the computer can't compensate for the changes, and does not run well. Forget about putting a supercharger, turbocharger or monster stroker crank in a Speed Density engine, because the stock computer tune won’t handle it. Every time you seriously change the airflow through the engine, you need a new custom burned chip to make the engine run at peak performance. Most aftermarket cams will not work well with Speed Density, and that includes the Ford letter cams.

Mass Air uses a Mass Air Flow meter (MAF) to actually measure how much air is being pulled into the engine. The computer uses this information and inputs from the O2, TPS, ACT, ECT, RPM and Barometric Pressure (Baro) sensors to calculate the proper air/fuel ratio. It is very tolerant of changes in airflow and vacuum and tolerates wild cams, high flowing heads, and changes in displacement with minimal difficulties. Just remember that large changes in airflow require more fuel than the stock fuel system can deliver. At that point, you will need larger injectors and a larger fuel pump to make the engine run like it is supposed to. Larger injectors can be used with either an aftermarket calibrated MAF or a custom dyno tune. This makes it possible to use the stock computer with engine displacements from 302-408 cu in, and make many modifications without a custom dyno tune chip. Put a new intake manifold on your 331 stroker and the computer figures out how much more fuel to deliver without having to have a new chip burned to accommodate the extra airflow.

The EFI will tell you what's wrong most of the time with just a simple dump of the codes.

EFI RULES on the street for a car that is driven in all kinds of weather, up and down mountains and gets great gas mileage. EFI will make just as much power as a carb and be easier to drive on the street. If isn't hard to tune if you know what you are doing.

There isn't a carb made without computer assist that can do all those things as well as EFI can. The only possible exception would be the IDA or DCOE Webers which cost major $$$ - like $3000 for 4 each IDA 48's and a manifold.

Surging idle - here's the fix... You guys with idle/stall problems could save a lot of time chasing your tails if you would go through the [URL=" http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=698148"]Surging Idle Checklist[/URL]. Over 50 different people contributed information to it. The first two posts have all the fixes, and steps through the how to find and fix your idle problems without spending a lot of time and money. It includes how to dump the computer codes quickly and simply as one of the first steps. I continue to update it as more people post fixes or ask questions. You can post questions to that sticky and have your name and idle problem recognized. The guys with original problems and fixes get their posts added to the main fix. It's free, I don't get anything for the use of it except knowing I helped a fellow Mustang enthusiast with his car. At last check, it had more than 250,000 hits, which indicates it does help fix idle problems quickly and inexpensively.

Lot's of good stuff here! I thank you for taking the time to respond and respond so thoroughly! Thanks

General karthief · Jun 29, 2021

Are you gonna update this thread with the progress you're making and the bumps in the road you encounter or fade off into the sunset?

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 29, 2021

General karthief said:
Are you gonna update this thread with the progress you're making and the bumps in the road you encounter or fade off into the sunset?

General karthief · Jun 29, 2021

CarMichael Angelo said:

Yeah, I know the answer already, mike.

slipkid269 · Jun 29, 2021

Well...uh. hmm. OK. I have some pics from what I did today and stuff. But was kinda thinkin it should go into like a build thread. So is that what I should do just post a build thread for my Falcon GT. (do I like Falcon GT?, better than Falstang or Falcor?.. so far). Well for now they go here it is relevant...gimmie a few.

slipkid269 · Jun 29, 2021

Goodies from Jegs today! My first shipment of hot rod parts in like...O, 30yrs!!! holy crap! I've got car parts mind you, but not for fun parts. My last parts were from P.A.W. Always with the big add in the magazines. Don't know if there still doin it or not. Not in any of my recent magazines.

Fuel pressure gauge installed between thunderstorms, some real doozies too!. It shows the pressure running. It goes up to 38psi then rpm's go down. Then pressure drops, rpm's go up. Drops to 20 or so and repeat. Don't know what to think of that actually. And it does have a return line it is rubber fuel line and the feed line is 3/8 copper going to rubber then the injector line.

The return uses the vent for the gas tank. There is no vent. Maybe I should try running it without the cap on once.

I haven't yet but will look up this number see if I find anything on the pump. Other than that today was work on boat day. So I am off, for now. I'll be back. I thought maybe I should just find a Falcon forum or something but I don't really have no question or need to. After-all it IS the Mustang Beta version, right?

90sickfox · Jun 29, 2021

The fuel pressure regulator is controlled by vacuum so it'll fluctuate if the vacuum moves around. Fuel pressure should go up with the vacuum line off.

There could be a vacuum leak at the lower intake gasket. It's a common thing with these cars.

slipkid269 · Jun 30, 2021

slipkid269 said:
Goodies from Jegs today! My first shipment of hot rod parts in like...O, 30yrs!!! holy crap! I've got car parts mind you, but not for fun parts. My last parts were from P.A.W. Always with the big add in the magazines. Don't know if there still doin it or not. Not in any of my recent magazines.

Fuel pressure gauge installed between thunderstorms, some real doozies too!. It shows the pressure running. It goes up to 38psi then rpm's go down. Then pressure drops, rpm's go up. Drops to 20 or so and repeat. Don't know what to think of that actually. And it does have a return line it is rubber fuel line and the feed line is 3/8 copper going to rubber then the injector line.

The return uses the vent for the gas tank. There is no vent. Maybe I should try running it without the cap on once.

I haven't yet but will look up this number see if I find anything on the pump. Other than that today was work on boat day. So I am off, for now. I'll be back. I thought maybe I should just find a Falcon forum or something but I don't really have no question or need to. After-all it IS the Mustang Beta version, right?

This pump seems to be very popular E2000 Summit, Amazon and even Walmart carry it. Seems to have good reviews and is warrantied for life...thats what they say. Says its quiet, hmm compared to what? Cuz it's not quiet in my book. Cannot find fuel pressures on it though someone states it's near 100 and they used a regulator to get it down to 60. So should be just fine. Doesn't need to be replaced directly but is on the list of future upgrades due to noise. Maybe a box over it would help. It does seem all out in the open and could use a cover of some sort.

slipkid269 · Jun 30, 2021

90sickfox said:
The fuel pressure regulator is controlled by vacuum so it'll fluctuate if the vacuum moves around. Fuel pressure should go up with the vacuum line off.

There could be a vacuum leak at the lower intake gasket. It's a common thing with these cars.

That is my thoughts too. The previous owners have threw alot of money in new parts at it and never corrected it. By visual inspection it doesn't look like they pulled the manifold off. I need to get under it anyway to clean up the wiring mess behind it and build a better linkage setup. That's a must be done thing as shown here.

Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to reply.

Progress Thread 1963 Falcor GT?

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clean it good before insertion

Wasn't a pretty sight...and I've got big hands

I love your drawers

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clean it good before insertion

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

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StangNet's favorite TOOL

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wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

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Wasn't a pretty sight...and I've got big hands

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