Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 21, 2020

This:

For whatever reason...There is wear evident where the converter engages the front pump. After only running for a grand total of 1 hour.

The 4r70w is a dead option. There is enough deflection in the driveline to cause significant damage to the converter after a minute of actual run time.

I’m sick...I really wanted it to work. I knew I was done for when after unbolting the converter from the flex plate, it wouldn’t push back. ( and I was concerned that the converter wasn’t fully engaging the front pump)

So gentlemen...where does that leave me?

I have to admit.. I expected the overwhelming advice to be ” Ditch the frankenstein adapter go for the tried and true 4l80e option......But the majority of you recommended the the A 340e.

There is just too much sht involved to make that transmission work.

So,.....Here I am... can’t do that...not gonna do that...

What makes sense to me ( At least till I talk to the trans guy tomorrow)....is that a 4l80e is the best option for me going forward.

Before I pulled the engine I compression tested it... All 6 cylinders....exactly the same. Which is a good thing I’m thinking.

I discovered a significant boost leak..the v band before the throttle body was so loose, the clamp had actually spun.. I’m lookin at it thinking “ Why the hell would I put the clamp nut at that impossible to tighten angle?”

I spun it around,...it was only finger tight. I was able to tighten it... that’s how bad I had a boost leak...
From what i’m seeing, the converter was seizing into the front pump...creating a significant drag on the engine...

Maybe now,without the boost leak, and that drag, it’ll run..

So,.....The 4 r70’s dead......Long live the 4L80e.

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 21, 2020

General karthief said:
I know that including ME in this opinion poll given the array of technical expertise here is like inviting a clown to an opera but since you asked here goes:
IF, upon removal and disassembly of the present trans reveals serious trouble and cannot be rectified simply than I vote for the jap trans.
And I am honored to be included, even if you were just being nice.
Wait!!!
Mike being NICE?

I appreciate all of the guys that chimed in today. The place is supposed to be this way..
Lest it be just another FB group.

95BlueStallion · Jun 21, 2020

CarMichael Angelo said:
This:

For whatever reason...There is wear evident where the converter engages the front pump. After only running for a grand total of 1 hour.

The 4r70w is a dead option. There is enough deflection in the driveline to cause significant damage to the converter after a minute of actual run time.

I’m sick...I really wanted it to work. I knew I was done for when after unbolting the converter from the flex plate, it wouldn’t push back. ( and I was concerned that the converter wasn’t fully engaging the front pump)

So gentlemen...where does that leave me?

I have to admit.. I expected the overwhelming advice to be ” Ditch the frankenstein adapter go for the tried and true 4l80e option......But the majority of you recommended the the A 340e.

There is just too much sht involved to make that transmission work.

So,.....Here I am... can’t do that...not gonna do that...

What makes sense to me ( At least till I talk to the trans guy tomorrow)....is that a 4l80e is the best option for me going forward.

Before I pulled the engine I compression tested it... All 6 cylinders....exactly the same. Which is a good thing I’m thinking.

I discovered a significant boost leak..the v band before the throttle body was so loose, the clamp had actually spun.. I’m lookin at it thinking “ Why the hell would I put the clamp nut at that impossible to tighten angle?”

I spun it around,...it was only finger tight. I was able to tighten it... that’s how bad I had a boost leak...
From what i’m seeing, the converter was seizing into the front pump...creating a significant drag on the engine...

Maybe now,without the boost leak, and that drag, it’ll run..

So,.....The 4 r70’s dead......Long live the 4L80e.

To me, the 4L80 sounds complicated, and potentially risky considering you are looking at well used examples. Combine that with the fact you may have to cut and reshape your transmission tunnel... At least with the Yota trans, it’s more about the wallet hurt. Is there really no manual shifting option out there for them?

Olivethefet · Jun 21, 2020

That sucks man. I hope the 4L option works for you! Hell I cant get my rear brakes to work right....

Rdub6 · Jun 21, 2020

I wasn’t invited, but I’ve been watching. Hope to see a positive outcome!

TOOLOW91 · Jun 22, 2020

95BlueStallion said:
To me, the 4L80 sounds complicated, and potentially risky considering you are looking at well used examples. Combine that with the fact you may have to cut and reshape your transmission tunnel... At least with the Yota trans, it’s more about the wallet hurt. Is there really no manual shifting option out there for them?

As far as manual trans plenty . Manual 4l80 the valve body was expensive last I remember . A340 I haven’t heard of any manual shifted ones

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 22, 2020

Rdub6 said:
I wasn’t invited, but I’ve been watching. Hope to see a positive outcome!

I’m Sorry sir, I was trying to remember everybody that participated here and forgot you.

Hoytster · Jun 22, 2020

CarMichael Angelo said:
This:

For whatever reason...There is wear evident where the converter engages the front pump. After only running for a grand total of 1 hour.

Well, there is your evidence of a misalignment (and a pretty major one). If you feel like doing some reading, here is a good article that mainly focuses on manual transmission alignment issues but can be related to automatic transmissions. I can't find the book I have on this topic which kind of pisses me off...

Bellhousing transmission alignment

I look forward to seeing how you can progress with the 4L80 if that's the way you decide to go.

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 22, 2020

There is one small chance that the converter isn’t worn from misalignment, but instead was being forced too deeply into the front pump.

There was front pump noise while it was running. When we first got it running, just putting it in gear would stall the engine, and if there was excessive drag, the engine would “ run like a pig”.
I couldn’t push the converter back any further when unbolting it from the flexplate. Now that the converter is out, trying to get it back on the pump is proving to be much more difficult than normal.

You can see the front pump bushing wear pattern in front of the reduced worn area where the pump lugs are...maybe I was jamming the thing into the transmission too hard and creating a bind .

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 22, 2020

95BlueStallion said:
To me, the 4L80 sounds complicated, and potentially risky considering you are looking at well used examples. Combine that with the fact you may have to cut and reshape your transmission tunnel... At least with the Yota trans, it’s more about the wallet hurt. Is there really no manual shifting option out there for them?

Not as complicated as the A 340 will be believe it or not. The amount of internal bs that has to be done to the trans to get it to survive, then getting it to shift, and getting a two piece drive shaft figured out are far more complicated than the alternative.

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 22, 2020

And the more I look, the more I'm thinking it wasnt the adapter that caused the failure...it was the converter specs.

Think about it..

There was ZERO converter hub penetration into the crank. Nothing to support it at the front. It would've been free to wobble with the flexplate.

And wallow the front pump part of the converter sleeve just like it did.

Maybe a new front pump, and a new converter with a longer pilot, and .090.-.125" less pump depth?

General karthief · Jun 22, 2020

So there is the possibility of further modification so the present set up can be used at minimal cost?
Could be a win!!
I'll keep my fingers crossed only because if I cross my toes I can't put my boots on.
And I'll look/walk funny barefoot with my toes crossed. People will point and laugh.
Unless I park the 'dump truck' in a Handicap spot, you can't point and laugh at then.

Olivethefet · Jun 22, 2020

I like to ask stupid questions so here goes. Why do you have to use a two piece drive shaft with the Toyota transmission? I really do want to know to educate myself. I'm gonna look this up later either way.

Rdub6 · Jun 22, 2020

CarMichael Angelo said:
I’m Sorry sir, I was trying to remember everybody that participated here and forgot you.

No problem at all. This is far beyond anything I’ve ever done, so I don’t have much to offer..... but I like reading, learning, and am looking forward to see the final working solution, which I am sure you will get to!

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 22, 2020

Olivethefet said:
I like to ask stupid questions so here goes. Why do you have to use a two piece drive shaft with the Toyota transmission? I really do want to know to educate myself. I'm gonna look this up later either way.

The transmission uses a different type of output called a guibo. Its similar to the rag joint that couples your steering shaft to your steering rack only its made out of thick rubber.
There is no slip yoke at the tail housing, so some toyotas ( mine) use a two piece shaft with a slip yoke type of joint in the middle. Seems like a potential problem to me.

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 22, 2020

I just talked with PTC converters. I told him what was happening. While I didn’t specifically ask him if he thought that was the problem ( having no converter hub “penetration into the rear” of the crank) that caused the damage, when I told him what had happened, and what I found he didn’t object to the diagnosis either.

He can rebuild the converter at both ends, I do know that. I’m gonna risk it, and order the stuff to try and make this work again.
( New front pump, new “ GTE” flex plate, not the smaller pattern GE currently on the engine.)

When I get home this evening, I’ll pull the front pump out, and apart and see if there is visible damage..( there should be). I’ll pull the pan, and see what kind of metal carnage is stuck on the big assed magnet in the bottom of the pan ( there should be).

This is what I think happened:

I think when I mocked this thing up using the thinner spacer between the crank and the flex plate, I may have had enough converter/ pump clearance. But the starter hung because of it. Adding the thicker spacer pushed the converter further into the front pump, couple that to the interference that was going on from the converter potentially “wobbling” at high rpm, and you have a horsepower robbing sonofabitch that is rapidly wearing itself out.

Now, if I can get the front of the new converter supported like it’s supposed to be, and make sure that there is enough end play into the front pump, maybe I’ll not have to spend 3 grand to fix this after all. Right now I’m at 180.00 with a new pump and GTE flexplate on the way. I expect the converter to cost 500.00 to fix. At less than 700.00 I can justify putting cams in the thing at this time.

droopie85gt · Jun 22, 2020

FULL STOP.

Soooo, you didn't have ANY engagement of the converter in the crank and wondered where the vibration was coming from for more than 1 glass of bourbon/whiskey-whatver your poison is.

I would go for a do-over on the Ford trans as well, before you dive off the 4L80 deep end.

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 22, 2020

droopie85gt said:
FULL STOP.

Soooo, you didn't have ANY engagement of the converter in the crank and wondered where the vibration was coming from for more than 1 glass of bourbon/whiskey-whatver your poison is.

I would go for a do-over on the Ford trans as well, before you dive off the 4L80 deep end.

Yeahhhh.....it took me a “ I wonder what’s up there “ minute to decide to check that.

The more I look at it, the more it only appears to be just that. The impeller side of the torque converter actually has that relieved area that slides into the front pump. In other words,....it’s not wear.

Its still very difficult to get the converter into the front pump though,...something still isn’t right there. But it’s not the converter....it’s something in the pump. That'll mean I shouldn’t have to have anything done there.
The converter will get the flexplate side completely revamped, though....including an extended pilot that will ride in the crank.

95BlueStallion · Jun 22, 2020

I hope you get it right this time and it works out. Fingers crossed for you Mike. I want to see Supra sounding Fairmont drive by videos by the end of the summer.

CarMichael Angelo · Jun 22, 2020

95BlueStallion said:
I hope you get it right this time and it works out. Fingers crossed for you Mike. I want to see Supra sounding Fairmont drive by videos by the end of the summer.

End of Summer you say,..I’m thinking by mid july.

The front pump inspection reveals nothing. No galling, no signs of metal on metal contact anywhere. The converter is evidently supposed to have that relief there ( although I never paid that much attention to it before) There is no shiny dust on the fluid.
No funky burned smell.
The only thing that is suspect would be that the snout of the converter wasn’t supported in the crank, and I had it almost too far into the front pump.....almost.

So that’s what I’m going with.

When the new flexplate gets here i’ll measure, and measure, to the point that i have checked the thing till i’m confident it’s right. then I’ll send the spacer, the flexplate, and the converter up to PTC for a redo. while that’s happening, i’ll attempt the pan fix.

I hope to hell that this is the fix.

Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

Attachments

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

My assy trans to myself

I will own your nuts! LOL

So while I wait to figure out my rear end issues

If you're the village idiot what's that make me?

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

I don't dare do that to my Knob

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair

I will own your nuts! LOL

So while I wait to figure out my rear end issues

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

Hookers and Beer for life!

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

My assy trans to myself

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,

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