Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.

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#11,802
I think you should make the togee trans work. It's made for the engine, no guessing games on fitting the engine just need to adapt it to the car and make it do the gear selecting thing, with everything else you have done and redone and done again it appears to me it is just a matter of money.
I ain't gonna tease you about you shoulda done this or that belly button thing.
I will tell you that adapted up trans you got going on now worries me.
And that makes me want to drink coffee.
And I don't need no more coffee tonight
 
#11,804
General karthief said:
I think you should make the togee trans work. It's made for the engine, no guessing games on fitting the engine just need to adapt it to the car and make it do the gear selecting thing, with everything else you have done and redone and done again it appears to me it is just a matter of money.
I ain't gonna tease you about you shoulda done this or that belly button thing.
I will tell you that adapted up trans you got going on now worries me.
And that makes me want to drink coffee.
And I don't need no more coffee tonight
Click to expand...
Well good on you for voicing an opinion. It’s not like anybody who’s actually read what i’ve said these last few pages has to have been keeping up with the entire 6 year build in order to say what they would do if they were in my shoes.

But,.....here we are.....


Too many words, and not enough pictures I guess...

On monday, I’ll hopefully have my path...The A 340 is back in my possession...The 2jz is almost paid for. Maybe I’ll just pay that bitch off, and plop down some wad on some other trans, solution and be back up and running sometime in July.
 
#11,806
CarMichael Angelo said:
Itd be nice to know that I wasn't just talking to myself here..But I did choose to walk the path less traveled.

Not many non ford blue blood bleeders on the way to 2jay town I guess. :stick:
Click to expand...

I chimed in. You ignored me....

I don’t know dick about Toyota stuff. However it sounds like building the stock transmission and letting Steve help you get the MS3 to control it is the way to go.

So do it.
 
#11,807
I know the feeling, nick. I'll give my advice/opinion when he asks or makes a comment about nobody looking only to have him kick me in the shin or poke me in the eye and tell me to shut up or ignores me totally.
Some times I wish we had a 'single finger salute' emogi
If he had done a coyote or a brand x swap he'd prolly be scratch'n out and pop'n wheelies already.
 
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#11,808
Well, get a TH400. And then look for a Gear Vendors OD. A TH400 one or at least the mount for a 400 should be easy to find and you can find GV pretty reasonable. Theoretically, you could then have a 6 speed OD Auto, that is indestructible.

I know you want lockup, but how many miles have you driven this thing again? Not like fuel economy should be primary design concern.

Not sure what it costs now, but when we went Buick drag racing, we bought a master rebuild kit from NAPA for like $173 (1993 dollars). That trans had 100's of 600hp 3500lb car passes and never had a hiccup.


More pictures would be nice in lieu of video!
 
#11,809
CarMichael Angelo said:
Well good on you for voicing an opinion. It’s not like anybody who’s actually read what i’ve said these last few pages has to have been keeping up with the entire 6 year build in order to say what they would do if they were in my shoes.

But,.....here we are.....


Too many words, and not enough pictures I guess...

On monday, I’ll hopefully have my path...The A 340 is back in my possession...The 2jz is almost paid for. Maybe I’ll just pay that bitch off, and plop down some wad on some other trans, solution and be back up and running sometime in July.
Click to expand...
Using google foo- I saw a few people talking about using the tail shaft off a tundra to use a more ford friendly slip yoke etc. maybe something worth a look for your planning. I know the mega squirt will control the yota trans -but I also found a stand-alone controller- https://www.hgmelectronics.com/transmission-controllers/
 
#11,810
There is input, and there is “ input”.
When I as for opinion, and somebody tells me that i should dump the entire combo, and put a coyote in the car, or has any tinge of “ I told you so”,......silence is the better reply option from me. I realize that alot of that is in jest, but anybody who has read what kind of struggle this has been to get this thing running, and running good enough to be happy with it should know that i’m at a point of fed up with this engine choice already. I’m not in a position to take a beating on this and bail, especially given the fact that the engine .......runs.

There are 12 of you guys that look in on this thread, and when I ask for advice that’s what i’m looking for.
so,...here is my official cyber phone call...( i’m dialing you all up right now) @a91what,

@TOOLOW91 ,@General karthief ,@RaggedGT,@95BlueStallion, @HotFox, @74stang2togo, @Hoytster, @LILCBRA, @KZGUNS,@Olivethefet, @dr. Dan W. @Noobz347@

Im asking for Your advice/opinion...

As i’ve said, You don’t have to know dick about a toyota to have an opinion. The three options boil down to a simple choice.

A. You attempt to fix what you have, hoping that maybe modifying the converter mounting depth into the crank will stabilize the converter better. That’ll require a new flexplate, and a rebuild on the converter. The anticipated cost for this is about 300-500 bucks. The upside is that this trans fits, works, and will tolerate the power and of course, the cost. The downside is that you do not know if that will be the fix.

B. You modify the A 340. It can be made to handle my HP goals. To do that will require a new converter, a total rebuild, upgraded internal parts, a shift kit, a trans controller, and a two piece drive shaft. the rear trans mount will have to be modified. It will cost at least 3 grand to do. It is a complete rebuild, with machining required to upgrade the internals.
The upside is that it will fit, it is what came behind the engine from the factory, so there won’t be any side effect vibration. The downside is the cost, the complexity of the fix, the fact that there’ll now be a 2 piece drive shaft in place of the one that’s there. I’ll have a mindless auto transmission controller controlling the trans from ”D”, or i’ll have to devise some paddle/button shifter as mine will probably not work.

C. You buy the 800.00 adapter that allows a 4l80e to fit. You’ll have to buy a 4l80e used for 600-800 bucks, and hope it’s not a basket case...It will probably have at least 100k miles on it. You add the 300.00 Transgo valve body modification kit that allows the same manual control of the trans that you have right now. You add a 600.00 converter. You‘ll have to change the trans mount, and shorten the drive shaft.
The upside is that once adapted, there should be no side effect vibration. There are numerous adapters made for this combo. If the trans is healthy, it is virtually indestructible. At my 600whp hp target, the trans will tolerate that power all day long. Despite the fact that it is a different trans than the engine, it’s actually easier to make it work than the factory trans.
The downside is that It might not fit. A 4l80e is gigantic. It’s also heavy as hell weighing nearly 300lbs. The adapter is 1/2” thick, and there isn’t any room behind the engine to accommodate that added thickness. Going this route may force a redo of the engine mounts to allow for that, which will force a redo to the hotside, the cold side, the radiator hoses , and maybe the ignition coil harness if it’s too tight.

So you’re all here. I’ve invited everyone that “usually“ pays attention to this thread, which means I’m asking for your input.

On paper, the answer is almost screaming at me....I just wanted to see what the majority think. As fir now, I’m going downstairs to pull the transmission.
 
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#11,811
You own the 4r70 . While expensive to take a gamble I think it’s worth the gamble honestly. We know it will support what you have and the car is setup for it . I think it’s worth the effort to make it work . If not my next move would be to invest in the a340 knowing it’s a bolt in affair and there is huge support .
Not that I want you to spend a fortune on it but motec is now supporting a340 control . That should tell you something . Baltic Supra ( YouTube and Instagram ) has been 7.70s with his a340 and drives all over fla.

This is my honest 2cents . Happy Father’s Day
 
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#11,812
Thanks for the call out. :)

I think any of the 3 options can work, but given that I like the road less travelled, I'd at least attempt to straighten out what you have. The converter pilot possibly not being engaged is really a relatively easy and inexpensive fix in the scheme of things. BUT, if there's anything you're uncomfortable with in your combo (personally, I'd be leery of the home made bell housing adapter, but it's probably just as good as the purchased ones :shrug:), now is the perfect opportunity to abandon ship and go with what is known to work. IF it is indeed the pilot that's not engaged, depending on how far away it actually is, you could have a sleeve made in the same manner as those of us with a II have to use for the pilot shaft of a T5, obviously sans bearing. And, if you're able to remedy the situation that way, I'd suggest the end that presses into the crank have a jack screw hole to ease removal if/when it ever has to come out.

Having said all of that, the other 2 options are definitely good ones. Again, personally I'd see about adapting the Toyota transmission. It's known to be physically compatible and proven to work at high horsepower levels with the right modifications. It sounds like you'd have to go through a transmission anyway, no sense in dropping coin on another transmission when it sounds like you already have one. And I don't think mating a driveshaft would be a deterring factor. That's child's play in the scheme of things. It also sounds like the computer control end of things would really only be a little extra money spent, but in my mind that's a better option than a slew of adapters to mate this or that.

In any event, good luck!! I'm anxiously awaiting the victory drive!! :)
 
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#11,813
Mike,

I usually and mostly keep my mouth shut, first because I know less than any of the others listed, and second because I want you to succeed, and don't think you need to be bothered with my opinion.

My advice is to fix what you have.

Your adapter could be good. I don't recall that you had the front and back faces machined to be parallel, but that seems important. With your fabrication skills, you ought to be able to mock-up the back of the block and the crankshaft/flexplate, and know the correct depth instead of guessing.

I understand that there is a way to get the bellhousing aligned with the transmission perfectly, which is necessary for some units to behave. You might need that, including the adapter. Again, a mocked-up back of the block might prove helpful.

At the risk of demonstrating my ignorance, why is a bolted-on shim to add depth in front of the converter or flexplate a terrible idea that I should be ashamed to even mention? No matter how heavily built it is, it'll weigh less that option 3, and no matter the cost of the custom machining, it's cost is insignificant compared to other options and what you frequently spend. This is assuming that there isn't already something like that that I've just forgotten, there to adapt to bolt hole misalignment or something.

The cost of the other two options actually includes the cost of the current trans as it currently sits, which you should consider.

You don't want a 'mindless auto transmission controller controlling the trans from ”D”', but you could solve that if you had to.

There's no path backwards, but several forwards. If you're stopped and taking the time to evaluate, that's good.

I've several times thought that your 3AM demon seems more like an angel. You often come to good conclusions after your talks. Demons don't work that way. Inconvenient isn't the same as evil.

Now wait for the useful responses from the others. I've gotta go serve God.

Dan
 
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#11,816
Thanks for the shout out!
I'm going to take a different path here...B.
My thought is you maybe throwing bad money at the 4R70 and still have adapter problems. Could you not sell the 4R70? Revive the 340 from the scrap, rebuild to take the power and find the way to control it.
I've been down this road before I put a Hemi clutch can on a Walkasha inline six tractor engine using the adapter I designed. Reclocked and rotated the starter along the ring gear circumference. Was successful due to good planning and over laying all the bolt patterns.
 
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#11,817
General karthief said:
Take that wheel with all the weight on it and have your guy break it down and spin the tire 180* on the wheel then rebalance it. I bet he will use a lot less weight then.
Click to expand...
RaggedGT said:
I’m sure Beamer has the latest and Greatest when it comes to a tire balancer etc. I’m sure the tire tech could match mount the tire to the rim (what kartheif said,but using the machine to tell you where to spin the tire on the rim for best balance.)
:demon:
Click to expand...
Have one of the BMW techs perform a road force balance on the wheel/tire assembly. If your dealership has the same balancer as mine, it can read the wheel with lasers and pick one of five "channels" for wheel weight and dial-in even a slightly bent wheel to an acceptable amount of road force.

As far as the transmission, I like built 4L60Es a lot. I've even contemplated one in ElSuperPinto.

That said, if you have the A340 already, I'd build that.
 
#11,818
You asked for my opinion so I'll give it even though I'm way out of my comfort zone. You've got a lot invested in the current transmission to just walk away from it right now.

You've got to pull the transmission any way. I say take a step back and think about the options for a bit while you work on getting the old transmission out. I'm hoping that you get it out and realize you made a mistake that you can correct. I've got my fingers crossed on that one.

If a bit of thinking on it and inspection doesnt reveal a way to fix the current setup I'd say go with option 2. I pick 2 because you've already got the transmission and it was made to work with that engine. Most likely the least painful alternative.

Just my opinion that come from no experience on the subject!

Good luck!!
 
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#11,819
Mike, as you already know since you had to call me out to comment, I've been biting my tongue on this whole thing when it came to the transmission modifications you were doing. Though I'm not a 2JZ type of guy, I do like being different and was really hoping all the work you put into the adapter would magically work. When I saw what you were doing with the adapter the first thing that came to mind was "he's either going to have wear issues or have a some vibration". I might have missed it since there is A LOT of reading in this thread, but I never saw if you tried to index the transmission to the engine with the adapter plate? You would need to check X and Y axis and the crankshaft center line to transmission and meet a tolerance of .005" on the x and y axis and an exact 90 degrees for the crankshaft to transmission center line measurement. A misalignment can cause wear but it can also cause vibration and heat issues if the alignment if far enough out (something like 0.012"+). Things can also tend to weld together with a misalignment (the heat issue).

With that being said, the whole reason I was concerned with the adapter is because it's welded. It's almost impossible to maintain this level of alignment when welding all those pieces together. Even if you had everything bolted together as a "jig" before you welded, once you take the bolts out the stresses created in the metal from the welding process will warp it. Ideally, you would have to weld everything together, get EXACT measurements for the bolt holes, then have the bolt holes drilled on a CNC machine to achieve this level of tolerance (at least reliably, we all get lucky sometimes). I'd be really curious as to how well that transmission indexes to the engine with that adapter plate.

Personally, with all this work into this current setup, I would pull the current trans and check things out (its going to have to happen one way or another anyways). I would measure alignment and if that is off, I would try to shim the adapter to bring the transmission into alignment with the engine and test it out. If it turns out to be anything else that results in you having to create another custom part/ect, then I would go the A340 route. Sure, you will have some "custom" parts to get the A340 to work, but those parts are much less critical and easy to fabricate (properly) then a transmission to engine adapter. I'd then sell your current trans and any other parts you can to recoup some costs.

As always, just my opinion.
 
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#11,820
I know that including ME in this opinion poll given the array of technical expertise here is like inviting a clown to an opera but since you asked here goes:
IF, upon removal and disassembly of the present trans reveals serious trouble and cannot be rectified simply than I vote for the jap trans.
And I am honored to be included, even if you were just being nice.
Wait!!!
Mike being NICE? :rlaugh: :lol::lol::rlaugh::lol::rlaugh::rlaugh::lol:
 
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