- May 8, 2006
- 703
- 237
- 84
Build Thread 1978 Mercury Cyclone. The pig is in the pen.
- Status
Did you hear about the car, with it's full interior catching on fire and then burning it, and the house above it to the ground?
The answer to the access is a hole saw; I'm sure that you could measure and get it in just the right place if there isn't something permanently mounted under the dash in the way. There used to be some clever covers for firewall holes. They had a bar with a tinnerman nut and then a metal disk that covered the hole. Wiggle the bar with the tinnerman nut through the hole and pull the disk until the tinnerman nut tightens to lock everything in place.
- May 8, 2006
- 703
- 237
- 84
Buy the plasma cutter first, but Jrichker is probably the safer individual to take advice from.
No access to drill a hole. The heater plenum directly over extends to the top of the tunnel.
This morning while going over in my head how I might be able to attack the inevitable transmission removal, I think that i may be able to cut out an access panel in the top of the tunnel, directly below the front of the dash. That should allow me to get to the top two bolts. ( at least that’s the way my mind sees it). I figure if it allows me to get an extension in there, I can get a socket onto the bolt and deal with it from above. Ill probably be a foot away from the bolt, but it will at least be a decent angle to where Ill have a better chance of success. Ill have to remove the console, and probably both seats so that I can get the carpet completely out of the way, but it might be my solution. Then I can take that cut piece, and make a perimeter flange that i’ll weld to it, and make a rectangular steel backer with nuts welded to it that will go under the floor so that i’ll have a way to bolt that access panel back in.
That is Plan of Attack #1.
Since I now have a new deep aluminum pan, the old steel pan is gonna get modified to serve as a anchor point for the floor jack so I can safely remove the heavy assed transmission. I figure, I’ll remove the existing jack pad that has a locating pin in it, and find me a piece of the same diameter tubing that that pin is, and weld it, and some reinforcing plate to the bottom of the old trans pan. Then I’ll bolt the pan back onto the bottom of the trans, and i’ll have a custom made, 4r70 transmission adapter for that Jack. ( if that pos HF jack will still actually jack up)
That is Plan of Attack #2.
Since i’m pretty sure that either one of two issues with the current transmission are causing this leak, I’m going to eliminate all of that by finding a replacement case. This time around, I will not cut notches into the transmission where the front pump has to slide in, which causes the front pump lip seal to snag and pinch. I’ll also make sure that I’m careful with bolt length when it comes to bolting the adapter back on to reduce the chance that i pull out the threads that those bolts go into. The issue will be that by not cutting notches into the front pump “sleeve” , the tabs on the adapter I made will stand off higher, which forces the bellhousing to be that much farther forward of the front pump. Maybe an1/8”, maybe more. That will force the converter to
.....Nope...just thought about that...I can’t do that.
If I push that bellhousing farther forward off of the transmission instead of where it is now, the back of the converter will make contact with that bell...
I Have to reuse the existing trans, and fix what I got...unless it’s somehow cracked. Then i’ll still have to get a new case, and cut the same seal cutting notches into the new trans.
(It ain’t easy being in my head...You gotta give the 3AMD credit for even being able to have a rational conversation with me.)
I think it’s the freakin bolt hole anyway....i think i’ve broken the trans, or drilled through into the inside where fluid can get out through that hole.
If that’s the case...JB weld will be the solution..I’ll brake clean the piss outta that hole, and Glue a stud into it effective sealing it shut.
Ill have to think more about all of the transmission parts a little more...But first, I gotta get that pig back out.
It‘ll take me hours just to get to a point where I can even start trying to take the thing out..Once there, either of those two fixes ( a new seal, or a glued in stud) is a less than an hour fix...Then i gotta find a way to check it for leaks before i put it back in, which will require that i fill it with enough fluid then tip that trans to force it to the front. If everything is good from there...
Meh....that’s too much positive thinking for me..i’ll have to wait and see how it goes.
That is Plan of Attack #1.
Since I now have a new deep aluminum pan, the old steel pan is gonna get modified to serve as a anchor point for the floor jack so I can safely remove the heavy assed transmission. I figure, I’ll remove the existing jack pad that has a locating pin in it, and find me a piece of the same diameter tubing that that pin is, and weld it, and some reinforcing plate to the bottom of the old trans pan. Then I’ll bolt the pan back onto the bottom of the trans, and i’ll have a custom made, 4r70 transmission adapter for that Jack. ( if that pos HF jack will still actually jack up)
That is Plan of Attack #2.
Since i’m pretty sure that either one of two issues with the current transmission are causing this leak, I’m going to eliminate all of that by finding a replacement case. This time around, I will not cut notches into the transmission where the front pump has to slide in, which causes the front pump lip seal to snag and pinch. I’ll also make sure that I’m careful with bolt length when it comes to bolting the adapter back on to reduce the chance that i pull out the threads that those bolts go into. The issue will be that by not cutting notches into the front pump “sleeve” , the tabs on the adapter I made will stand off higher, which forces the bellhousing to be that much farther forward of the front pump. Maybe an1/8”, maybe more. That will force the converter to
.....Nope...just thought about that...I can’t do that.
If I push that bellhousing farther forward off of the transmission instead of where it is now, the back of the converter will make contact with that bell...
I Have to reuse the existing trans, and fix what I got...unless it’s somehow cracked. Then i’ll still have to get a new case, and cut the same seal cutting notches into the new trans.
(It ain’t easy being in my head...You gotta give the 3AMD credit for even being able to have a rational conversation with me.)
I think it’s the freakin bolt hole anyway....i think i’ve broken the trans, or drilled through into the inside where fluid can get out through that hole.
If that’s the case...JB weld will be the solution..I’ll brake clean the piss outta that hole, and Glue a stud into it effective sealing it shut.
Ill have to think more about all of the transmission parts a little more...But first, I gotta get that pig back out.
It‘ll take me hours just to get to a point where I can even start trying to take the thing out..Once there, either of those two fixes ( a new seal, or a glued in stud) is a less than an hour fix...Then i gotta find a way to check it for leaks before i put it back in, which will require that i fill it with enough fluid then tip that trans to force it to the front. If everything is good from there...
Meh....that’s too much positive thinking for me..i’ll have to wait and see how it goes.
@CarMichael Angelo
Helicoil is still the best solution for stripped bolt holes, so why not try it? They are used in aircraft engines which is a whole lot more critical than your transmission, You can drive the car to the shoulder of the road and call a wrecker to get the car home, but you can't do that with an airplane….
Helicoil is still the best solution for stripped bolt holes, so why not try it? They are used in aircraft engines which is a whole lot more critical than your transmission, You can drive the car to the shoulder of the road and call a wrecker to get the car home, but you can't do that with an airplane….
If it’s not cracked or penetrating into the case allowing fluid to get out through that hole I would.
@CarMichael Angelo
Cracks:
UV dye penetrant and a UV light will spot most cracks, Being that it is a bolt hole, some practice may be needed to get the best results. You live a big city and there will probably be a place that does Zyglo testing, So give some thought to having it checked by a place that does NDI (Non Destructive Testing) inspection.
Helicoil fix for holes that reach into oil and water galleries.
Clean the hole with acetone, fill the bottom part with JB Weld and then drill it for Helicoil. Use a drill stop to prevent you from drilling out all the packed JB Weld.
Cracks:
UV dye penetrant and a UV light will spot most cracks, Being that it is a bolt hole, some practice may be needed to get the best results. You live a big city and there will probably be a place that does Zyglo testing, So give some thought to having it checked by a place that does NDI (Non Destructive Testing) inspection.
Helicoil fix for holes that reach into oil and water galleries.
Clean the hole with acetone, fill the bottom part with JB Weld and then drill it for Helicoil. Use a drill stop to prevent you from drilling out all the packed JB Weld.
Sorry Mike, I’m not on here as much as I used to be as my car went on full back burner status. I sure hope that once you do what you have to do with the existing trans that it works and allows you to focus on tuning the engine.
WOOOOOTTT!!!
What might just be a picture of two metric bolts, are in fact the two not so impossible to get to bolts on top of the transmission..
W/O having to do anything more than stick 42" of extension up along the transmission tunnel. NO extra holes, no dropped trans angle...I've never been so happy that I was able to remove two bolts in my life.
What might just be a picture of two metric bolts, are in fact the two not so impossible to get to bolts on top of the transmission..
W/O having to do anything more than stick 42" of extension up along the transmission tunnel. NO extra holes, no dropped trans angle...I've never been so happy that I was able to remove two bolts in my life.
Allrightythen!!!!
now it's just getting them back in.
Oops, maybe should not have mentioned that
now it's just getting them back in.
Oops, maybe should not have mentioned that
And boom...stop the clock.
Right at 2 hours from the first pull on a wrench to here by myself.
Right at 2 hours from the first pull on a wrench to here by myself.
Last edited:
The tale of the tape.
Had this been a normally mated bellhousing, leaking trans fluid that was coming out of the converter hub seal in the front pump would be dripping out of the bellhousing.
But since it's not, a fluid leak that was coming out of that seal would just drip straight down, and if there was nothing between it and the ground, there'd be a puddle on the floor directly under it.
In my case, the adapter bracket is straight below that...so fluid would hit that, and drip off of it before hitting the ground..
Make sense?
This is what the bracket looks like.
This is freshly separated. When you zoom in on the bolts, or the perimeter pump lip seal, its dry as a bone.
No evidence of any leakage whatsoever.
When you zoom on on the converter hub seal however....different story.
And when you sight a line directly beneath that seal this is where a drip would land..
On the bracket directly beneath, exactly where that freakin leak was happening.
The seal looked good to me, yet it leaked. How that was happening is beyond me, and how I can guarantee myself that a new seal will fix the leak is beyond me..
But that's what I'm gonna have to go with.
Maybe the rubber part wasnt leaking, and the metal/metal part was?
It's not something that AZ will have, that's for sure, so I'm done for today.
I was considering swapping the old pump back in, but I'm not wanting to remove those pump bolts yet another time, and risk maybe stripping out another hole or pinching the pump perimeter lip seal,...so I'm content to wait till tomorrow, or tuesday to get a new seal.
Had this been a normally mated bellhousing, leaking trans fluid that was coming out of the converter hub seal in the front pump would be dripping out of the bellhousing.
But since it's not, a fluid leak that was coming out of that seal would just drip straight down, and if there was nothing between it and the ground, there'd be a puddle on the floor directly under it.
In my case, the adapter bracket is straight below that...so fluid would hit that, and drip off of it before hitting the ground..
Make sense?
This is what the bracket looks like.
This is freshly separated. When you zoom in on the bolts, or the perimeter pump lip seal, its dry as a bone.
No evidence of any leakage whatsoever.
When you zoom on on the converter hub seal however....different story.
And when you sight a line directly beneath that seal this is where a drip would land..
On the bracket directly beneath, exactly where that freakin leak was happening.
The seal looked good to me, yet it leaked. How that was happening is beyond me, and how I can guarantee myself that a new seal will fix the leak is beyond me..
But that's what I'm gonna have to go with.
Maybe the rubber part wasnt leaking, and the metal/metal part was?
It's not something that AZ will have, that's for sure, so I'm done for today.
I was considering swapping the old pump back in, but I'm not wanting to remove those pump bolts yet another time, and risk maybe stripping out another hole or pinching the pump perimeter lip seal,...so I'm content to wait till tomorrow, or tuesday to get a new seal.
Last edited:
HotFox
15 Year Member
Just a couple thoughts that are alarming. The vibration is it only while driving? Or only when you rev it? If yes! Could you rev it with the torque converter unbolted and pushed back and see if is still there? Do you feel a bind when you push the TC back against the flex plate?
Can you put a protractor on the front of the pulley of the engine and then some how check the angle on the transmission? The splines maybe give you a half degreed of movement maybe that seal likes less or perhaps gets worst under load unseating the seal lip? I'm sorry Mike I'm picking on your adapter again. Or maybe you do just have a bad seal.
Can you put a protractor on the front of the pulley of the engine and then some how check the angle on the transmission? The splines maybe give you a half degreed of movement maybe that seal likes less or perhaps gets worst under load unseating the seal lip? I'm sorry Mike I'm picking on your adapter again. Or maybe you do just have a bad seal.
Last edited:
No worries,..the first time it was running it wasn’t leaking despite the vibration. Which happens in gear, not detectable in park.
For whatever reason, there are times when Kate will ask me “ what I got done in the garage”.
These are few and far between because she can tell when things go my way, and when they didn’t. ( All you have to do is be in the house above the garage)....If there are no foul obscenities’ screamed at the top of my lungs while i’m cussing a bolt that won’t thread, or bitching about something I can no longer see because I have to wear blind man readers when working up close, then it can be assumed that things “went my way“.
Today was one of those days.
Innocently enough, she’ll start off by asking if i got done what I wanted to accomplish. If I leave it short and sweet, she’ll usually give me a “that’s nice”, or “I’m glad“, or a simple “good for you“..and that will be that.
If,...however I tell her that the fix, isn’t necessarily “the fix”, Not only do I open the can of worms,...but they usually end up spilling all over the floor.
Such was the case today.
” So then,...this fixes the problem?”
” Maybe,....it might fix it, I think this’ll fix it,...at least I hope it fixes it...But even if the leak is fixed, it may still have the vibration.”
“ Are you ever gonna be done with this thing?...If this thing was mine, I’d be calling the junkyard and telling them to come get it.”
“ The JUNKYARD?, Is that what you think I’ve been working on,...a junk yard car?”
” That’s not what I mean...I just think you’d be fed up with never having something that runs,...you’d think that there’d be an engine you can put in the car, that fits the car..with a transmission that fits the engine, AND the car, and be done with it....I know that’s what I’d do”. “ Isn’t there some engine that’s supposed to fit this car.”
” In our entire lives together, have you ever known me to do ANYTHING that is bread and butter simple?...You were standing next to me 2 years ago at Cruisin the Coast...I build stuff that ISNT the same as everybody for a reason.”
“So it can sit for 6 out of 7 years?”
So,...that conversation brings me around to tonight’s revelation..The easy path to getting this car running right ( if it doesn’t this time around) is to build the A 340 transmission. After removing the existing trans today, it only came out because of the smaller bellhousing. Had this been the adapted 4r80e, with its stock large pattern bellhousing, and 1/2” thick spacer adapter,..that thing would still be in there.
The A 340 can be built to tolerate 700 hp. It’ll be a total rebuild, Ill have to come up with a converter, (that’ll fit w/o modification)
a transmission controller, a shifter, an adapted rear trans mount, and an adapted drive shaft to mate to the rigid 3 prong tail shaft on the trans,...And all of that is gonna cost me $3000.00......But,....it’ll fit the engine...and it’ll come closer to fitting the car..
And maybe Kate will understand when I tell her that it cost 3000.00 to have a transmission that fits the engine, and the car, and runs..
Probably not.
These are few and far between because she can tell when things go my way, and when they didn’t. ( All you have to do is be in the house above the garage)....If there are no foul obscenities’ screamed at the top of my lungs while i’m cussing a bolt that won’t thread, or bitching about something I can no longer see because I have to wear blind man readers when working up close, then it can be assumed that things “went my way“.
Today was one of those days.
Innocently enough, she’ll start off by asking if i got done what I wanted to accomplish. If I leave it short and sweet, she’ll usually give me a “that’s nice”, or “I’m glad“, or a simple “good for you“..and that will be that.
If,...however I tell her that the fix, isn’t necessarily “the fix”, Not only do I open the can of worms,...but they usually end up spilling all over the floor.
Such was the case today.
” So then,...this fixes the problem?”
” Maybe,....it might fix it, I think this’ll fix it,...at least I hope it fixes it...But even if the leak is fixed, it may still have the vibration.”
“ Are you ever gonna be done with this thing?...If this thing was mine, I’d be calling the junkyard and telling them to come get it.”
“ The JUNKYARD?, Is that what you think I’ve been working on,...a junk yard car?”
” That’s not what I mean...I just think you’d be fed up with never having something that runs,...you’d think that there’d be an engine you can put in the car, that fits the car..with a transmission that fits the engine, AND the car, and be done with it....I know that’s what I’d do”. “ Isn’t there some engine that’s supposed to fit this car.”
” In our entire lives together, have you ever known me to do ANYTHING that is bread and butter simple?...You were standing next to me 2 years ago at Cruisin the Coast...I build stuff that ISNT the same as everybody for a reason.”
“So it can sit for 6 out of 7 years?”
So,...that conversation brings me around to tonight’s revelation..The easy path to getting this car running right ( if it doesn’t this time around) is to build the A 340 transmission. After removing the existing trans today, it only came out because of the smaller bellhousing. Had this been the adapted 4r80e, with its stock large pattern bellhousing, and 1/2” thick spacer adapter,..that thing would still be in there.
The A 340 can be built to tolerate 700 hp. It’ll be a total rebuild, Ill have to come up with a converter, (that’ll fit w/o modification)
a transmission controller, a shifter, an adapted rear trans mount, and an adapted drive shaft to mate to the rigid 3 prong tail shaft on the trans,...And all of that is gonna cost me $3000.00......But,....it’ll fit the engine...and it’ll come closer to fitting the car..
And maybe Kate will understand when I tell her that it cost 3000.00 to have a transmission that fits the engine, and the car, and runs..
Probably not.
The way I see this, it’s like marriage counseling. My wife and I went through it once at the 7 year mark. Everything covered in counseling had been said in private prior, but it didn’t get taken seriously until the uninvolved third party said it or agreed with it. Kate represents the counselor in this case, several of us meager forum friends as the spouse.
- Status