1991 Lx Transmission/clutch Concerns. Hard To Drive

[HotRodBlack]

Well I'm looking for some guidance as I have not dealt with a manual trans with a cable clutch in my career... I am a Toyota Mechanic, and all I have seen is hydraulic set ups.

That being said, I am looking for some guidance and some things to look at before I commit to pulling the tranny.

Note: this was the previous owner's weekend warrior... and states it's a replacement transmission

So the car is just overall difficult to drive. I'm trying to figure out if It's just old mustang, or if it's out of whack and needs to be fixed. I can drive it, but it tires me out.

First symptom is the clutch is very stiff. I feel about a quarter inch of free play in the pedal before I got some clutch and I CAN shift it out of gear less than halfway down. Problem is that I'm 170 lbs and the pedal will stand me up a little in my seat. So when I'm tryin to act like a hooligan, I'm having to literally stomp the pedal down, and even doing so I feel it travels slow.

The second symptom may be part of the first. Now when I get it into a forward gear, it'll stay and hold and won't slip under any rpm. Problem is I feel like it wants to fight me a little, almost like it's blocking me. I can downshift as well, similar deal. It doesn't grind, unless I'm going from 1-2 and my foot got tired and I didn't get the clutch all the way down (see symptom 1 lol)

Note: previous owner states a "short throw" shifter has been installed.

The third, and most irritating of them all is it pops out of reverse like every time I don't have my fist on it. Seems to do it when my Rs are higher than 1500. Then I gotta stop, stomp the pedal, and force it to stay.

So. My question is, how much of this is old mustang, and actual problem.

And for problems, where am I going first before committing to pulling the tranny.

Note:clutch cable appears to be new. I can see there's an adjustment at the firewall under the hood but I don't see the quadrant I've heard so much about.

So. If anyone has any tips and tricks, please share? It would be greatly appreciated

 

[Mustang5L5]

First problem can depend highly on what brand/model clutch is installed. Some are better than others. This assumes the issue isn't cause by something binding in the clutch cable/fork setup causing the extra resistance.

Second might be related to the first. If the clutch isn't fully releasing, it tends to make shifting or pulling out of gear very difficult. You need full disengagement to shift between gears easily.

3rd could be physical damage to the reverse gear inside the trans. If the gear gets grinded frequently, it tends to wear and rounds over. SO under load, it may want to pop out. Reverse is straight cut teeth, so there are no dog teeth to lock it into place. (prior to 1992) Any defect in the gears and pop it out of engagement.



I guess the first thing I'd do is inspect the clutch quadrant under the dash, and make sure it doesn't look damage or disintegrating, and then crawl under the car, remove the clutch fork cover, and have a peek at the cable/fork and throwout bearing and see if anything looks amiss there. You may need to address this issue by throwing some new parts at it...specifically a clutch kit, and possibly a new cable and clutch quadrant.

 

[90sickfox]

I'll give you a trick....install a hydraulic clutch system. It'll be a lot easier on your leg...and it'll be something you're used to working on.

Popping out of reverse isn't a clutch issue but either detent springs, detent spring keys...or dog teeth at the reverse synchro. Its actually pretty normal to have to hold the shifter while reversing.

 

[Mustang5L5]

I'll give you a trick....install a hydraulic clutch system. It'll be a lot easier on your leg...and it'll be something you're used to working on.

Is there a kit for the Fox? All I see are 1960's Mustang kits using a T-5.

I'd like to do this in the future as my left knee was operated on 10 years ago and only a matter of time before it starts bugging me


EDIT: found one

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-...-new-hydraulic-clutch-setup-for-fox-mustangs/

 

[90sickfox]

Yes, they do.

Both of these are from latemodelrestoration.com we also get a 6 percent discount with pur discount code for Stangnet.

 

[HotRodBlack]

Yes, they do.

Both of these are from latemodelrestoration.com we also get a 6 percent discount with pur discount code for Stangnet.

This is awesome, I think I will be doing this in the future for sure. That will make this a much more drivable car. Thank you so much for the find.

 

[HotRodBlack]

First problem can depend highly on what brand/model clutch is installed. Some are better than others. This assumes the issue isn't cause by something binding in the clutch cable/fork setup causing the extra resistance.

Second might be related to the first. If the clutch isn't fully releasing, it tends to make shifting or pulling out of gear very difficult. You need full disengagement to shift between gears easily.

3rd could be physical damage to the reverse gear inside the trans. If the gear gets grinded frequently, it tends to wear and rounds over. SO under load, it may want to pop out. Reverse is straight cut teeth, so there are no dog teeth to lock it into place. (prior to 1992) Any defect in the gears and pop it out of engagement.



I guess the first thing I'd do is inspect the clutch quadrant under the dash, and make sure it doesn't look damage or disintegrating, and then crawl under the car, remove the clutch fork cover, and have a peek at the cable/fork and throwout bearing and see if anything looks amiss there. You may need to address this issue by throwing some new parts at it...specifically a clutch kit, and possibly a new cable and clutch quadrant.

Ok well I don't believe the quadrant is on this car anymore. And I will have to peek through the window at the clutch itself. Maybe I'll tinker around with the adjustment. It's a good possibility the previous guy installed some stupid racing clutch for no reason... seemed like he knew just enough to be dangerous.

I'll peek at it and post what I find.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

I'll give you a trick....install a hydraulic clutch system. It'll be a lot easier on your leg...and it'll be something you're used to working on.

Popping out of reverse isn't a clutch issue but either detent springs, detent spring keys...or dog teeth at the reverse synchro. Its actually pretty normal to have to hold the shifter while reversing.

And i have a freakin brand new hyd t/o bearing ive been trying to sell just waiting for a place to land.

 

[90sickfox]

I want the external slave style...way easier to work on.

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

I want the external slave style...way easier to work on.

whachutalkinbout Willis. The kit pictured above IS an external slave style.

 

[90sickfox]

And i have a freakin brand new hyd t/o bearing ive been trying to sell just waiting for a place to land.

" Hydraulic throw out bearing "

 

[HotRodBlack]

Anyone have anything to add? I'm about to commit to pulling the transmission apart! Let's see how she ticks.

 

[General karthief]

I don't know how the cable would be connected to the peddle if the was not a quadrant, try disconnecting the cable from the clutch arm at the bellhousing and see if the cable moves smoothly and the clutch arm moves freely on the trans, take a good look under your dash to see if there is a quadrant.
It maybe a stiff clutch but I'd eliminate the other stuff first.

 

[Mustang5L5]

T5s are easy and fun to mess with. Your gonna have to open it to tackle reverse anyway, so might as well see what sort of shape it all is

 

[MFE92]

I can practically guarantee it's the cable, and if you put a GOOD new one in it (like Maximum Motorsports, the only one made the same good way as the OEM one was), you'll stick your foot right through the floor like Fred Flintstone the first time you use it.

 

[jrichker]

Clutch Adjustment for stock and aftermarket setups
Revised 28-Apr-2016 to include need for longer cable with single hook quadrant

Clutch adjustment with stock cable and quadrant
There is a self-adjusting mechanism for the clutch cable. As the clutch wears the cable tension changes, that is why there is a self-adjusting mechanism built into the clutch pedal. There is a toothed plastic quadrant with a ratchet pawl that engages the quadrant. As you pull up on the clutch pedal, it ratchets and takes any slack out of the clutch cable. Mess around with the pedal or even bump it while the end that fits in the clutch fork is loose, and it tries to take up the slack in the cable. That has the effect of shortening the cable.

Do the clutch adjustment first before considering any other problems. With the stock plastic quadrant and cable, pull up on the clutch pedal until it comes upward toward you. It will make a ratcheting sound as the self adjuster works. To release to tension of the stock quadrant, use a screwdriver to lift the ratchet paw up and out of engagement with the quadrant teeth.

You can use a screwdriver to lift the ratchet pawl off the quadrant teeth. That will allow you to move the quadrant to allow more slack in the cable. If the cable is too loose, pull up on the pedal. The ratchet pawl will allow the quadrant to take up the slack in the cable and lock the adjustment.

Adjustable cables are used when the plastic quadrant is replaced with an aftermarket metal quadrant. The downside to this setup is that you have to get under the car to adjust the clutch. Add a firewall adjuster to an adjustable cable setup and you can spare yourself from getting back under the car to make any fine adjustment that you desire.

The fancy 2 and 3 hook quadrants are for use with stock length cable and a firewall adjuster. Use the firewall adjuster and screw in and out to take the slack out of the cable and get the clutch engagement point just where you want it.

Binding clutch cable
A binding clutch cable will make the clutch very stiff. If the cable is misrouted or has gotten too close to the exhaust, it will definitely bind. The binding common to adjustable cables is often due to misplacement of the adjusting nuts on the fork end of the cable. This will also cause the cable to wear and fray. Both nuts should be on the back side of the fork so that the domed nut faces the fork and the other nut serves as jam or locknut to the domed nut.

Clutch pedal adjustment
Clutch pedal adjustment with aftermarket quadrant and cable: I like to have the clutch completely disengaged and still have about 1.5” travel left before the pedal hits the floor. This means that I have only about 1” of free play at the top before the pedal starts to disengage the clutch. Keep in mind that these figures are all approximate. When properly adjusted, there will not be any slack in the clutch cable. You will have 4-15 lbs preload on the clutch cable. With a non adjustable cable and a firewall adjuster, the cable needs to go in the second hook of the quadrant. Single hook quadrants used with a firewall adjuster may make the clutch too tight, causing it to slip. The possible exception to this is the Maximum Motorsports cable which is a bit longer to make it work with a single hook quadrant.

Adjustable clutch cable tips:
Loosening the cable adjustment nut (throwout bearing arm moves to the rear of the car) moves the disengagement point towards the floor.

Tightening the cable adjustment nut (throwout bearing arm moves to the front of the car) moves the disengagement point towards the top of the pedal.

Firewall adjuster tips
Turning the firewall adjuster IN makes the engagement point closer to the floor since it loosens the cable. You have to push the pedal to the floor to disengage the clutch. Too loose a cable and the clutch won't completely disengage and shifting will be difficult. Gears will grind and you may have difficulty getting the transmission in first gear when stopped.

Turning the firewall adjuster OUT makes the engagement point farther from the floor since it tightens the cable. You push a short distance to disengage the clutch. Too tight a cable will cause clutch slippage.

Aftermarket solutions to the problem:
The quadrant needs to be replaced if you use any type of aftermarket cable or adjuster. My preference is a Ford Racing quadrant, adjustable cable and Steeda firewall adjuster. The adjustable Ford Racing cable is just as good as the stock OEM cable. It allows a greater range of adjustment than a stock cable with a aftermarket quadrant and firewall adjuster. Combined with the Steeda adjuster, it lets you set the initial cable preload and then fine tune the clutch engagement point to your liking without getting under the car.

Using a stock OEM cable, firewall adjuster and a single hook quadrant may result in not having any free pedal travel before the clutch starts to disengage. I found this out the hard way.

See Summit Racing - High Performance Car and Truck Parts l 800-230-3030 for the following parts.

Ford Racing M-7553-B302 - Ford Racing V-8 Mustang Adjustable Clutch Linkage Kits - Overview - SummitRacing.com Cable and quadrant assembly $90

The Ford Racing Adjustable cable is available as a separate part:
Clutch Cable, Adjustable, Ford, Mercury, 5.0L, Kit

[url=http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SDA-555-7021/]Steeda Autosports 555-7021 - Steeda Autosports Firewall Cable Adjusters - Overview - SummitRacing.com Steeda firewall adjuster. $40

Fix for the quadrant end of the cable popping out of the quadrant when installing a replacement cable courtesy of Grabbin' Asphalt

[/url]

Help for those who have replaced the clutch assembly and are still having problems with adjustment:
The next step doesn't make much sense it you already have the transmission installed, but just for sake of discussion, here it is:
The throwout bearing sits in the clutch fork arm with the wave springs pressing on the rear flange of the throwout bearing.

Major differences between the distance between the flywheel surface and the clutch fingers may require tinkering with the clutch fork pivot ball. Stack your old pressure plate, clutch disc and flywheel up like they were when installed in the car. Tighten down all the pressure plate bolts and measure the distance between the clutch fingertips and the flywheel face.
Too much thickness will cause the clutch fork arm to sit too far back to get the clutch cable on the quadrant. It may even sit against the rear or the bell housing hole for the clutch fork arm. In that case, reduce the pivot ball height.
Too little thickness will cause the clutch fork arm to sit too far forward and bottom out against the front side of the bell housing hole for the clutch fork arm.. This will prevent the clutch from fully disengaging.
In other words, the clutch fork arm should sit positioned midway or a little towards the rear in the bell housing hole for the clutch fork arm when the cable is properly tensioned.

 

[HotRodBlack]

So going to put her up on a lift and do some mustang stuff! Pics to follow, hopefully learn something too! Ty for all that clutch info that really helps out a lot!

 

[HotRodBlack]

UPDATE:
D/C cable from clutch fork, smooth as butter in cable... routed properly too. Still unable to locate any under dash quadrant, but I can see a firewall adjuster in place. I moved the pedal height towards me.

I'm unable to move the clutch fork by hand and my h pipe currently instructs my view.

I'm thinking I have a super powerful clutch pressure plate...

 

[HotRodBlack]

UPDATE:
Failure... no improvement. Trans was low on oil due to tailshaft seal leak. It's a litte easier to get into gear... The clutch is too poweful, trans has to come down.

Diagnosis? Something in the clutch itself...

 

[General karthief]

Super duper high proformance clutch, good for high horse power, bad for knees and ankles, I would search for that quadrant, follow the clutch cable under the dash to the peddle and see how it is connected first