2000 4.6 Mustang with crank no start

rob65cars

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May 7, 2019
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Hi all,
I'm new and I hope I'm in the correct location, if not I apologize now. Please point me in the correct direction if I'm not.
1st off let me give yall a little back ground on the issue.
I did a swap between two mustangs, one being a 99 GT 4.6 5 speed with a salvage title. The second a 2000 base 3.8 automatic.
I decided to do the swap because (I thought) the 2000 would be worth more with the v8 swap than the v6. I also thought the 99 with the salvage title I would be limited to what I could get for it due to the salvage title. With that said I did the 99 swap first by swapping out the v8 for the v6 automatic. I swapped the drive train, cluster, rear end, interior, pedals, wiring and anything else I could think of the v8 might need. Everything went well, and now I have moved on to the 2000 swap. I rebuilt the v8 ( bored .05) had head work done new timing component's, new stage 3 cams, new aluminum intake, throttle body and plenum, new CAI, spark plugs, COP (ebay) new egr tube (mine was split), BBK long tubes and x pipe. That's all I can think of now, but there's more. I have never heard the engine run due to the engine needed to be rebuilt at purchase. I hope you have an idea of what I have done to this point?
I got everything together (what a headache on the cams, YES, you need to fly cut the pistons to run stage 3 cams "IF" you want to run a described center line) and tried to start the engine. At first I was having a theft light flashing, after doing some research on Stangnet I found a post that someone stated if you replace the cluster you have to get it calibrated, That person was correct!!! THANKS!!! I replaced the cluster with the original and the theft flashing theft light disappeared. Now I tried to start the engine again with no luck The engine turns over but wont start, it acts like it wants to but never does. This may have nothing to do with this, but I remembered in trying to trace the theft light I checked the ccrm and on pin #21 on the plug it showed no power, (should all time power be going in or coming out of the plug?) I tried to check with the plug plugged into the ccrm and I don't think my probe ( light) would go deep enough. I have checked other items trying to trace the theft light. I checked the injector plugs with a noid, they light the noid good, I used the same noid to check the cop plugs and they barely flicker the light, I checked the voltage and It checked between 6 to 8 volts. I could only get voltage from one side (don't know if voltage should be on both sides?). This is where I am now, any HELP would be GREATLY appreciated!! I am able to check this post during my breaks at work during the hours of 8-5 Eastern time. So if you ask a question and I don't reply right away this is why.
Again I appreciate any help!!!
Rob
 
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wmburns

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I checked the ccrm and on pin #21 on the plug it showed no power,
CCRM pin #21 is the PCM AC clutch control. It's a signal wire that the PCM uses to enable/disable the AC clutch. Not your problem.
I checked the injector plugs with a noid, they light the noid good, I used the same noid to check the cop plugs and they barely flicker the light
PATS works by withholding the injector pulse. The fact that the injectors "noid" out means that PATS has "proved out". PATS is not your issue.

There MUST be full battery voltage at EACH injector and COP the entire time that the key is on. IF there really is 6 to 8 volts as measured between supply and ground, this is a real problem.

Did you re-installed the motor ground from the left hand motor mount to the frame rail?

Here's some more information on how to CONFIRM using the voltage drop test method that the ground between the alternator case and battery positive is good. Don't cut corners here! Do yourself a big favor and make double sure that all grounds are in place. This include the radiator core support (both sides). Could be useful to measure ground voltage drop during cranking. Post.

Howto perform charging system voltage drop test
https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/resources/howto-perform-charging-system-voltage-drop-test.56/

The voltage drop method could also be used between the red wire of each COP and battery positive. Test with the key on. A high voltage drop value would indicate there's a weak connection somewhere in the positive supply path.

It would be handy to know;
  • the MAF flow.
  • the fuel pressure.
  • The input air temperature sensor value (IAT). Often an open circuit IAT sensor will read -40 degrees which will create hard/no start conditions.
Do you have an ODB2 scanner? If you did it might make short work of this problem.

Here's some information on an affordable Windows based unit.

ForScan ODB2 scanner w ELM327 USB
https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/resources/forscan-odb2-scanner-w-elm327-usb.57/

As for "old school" tests:
  • Have you confirmed spark?
  • Have you confirmed fuel pressure?
  • Will the PCM "talk" to an ODB2 reader/scanner?
  • Will the motor "hit" on a small amount of starting fluid?
  • Does the motor make a regular "chug chug" sound during cranking?
Here's some more information that may help.

1996+ Crank with no start check list
https://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/4-6l-tech/336452-1997-mustang-wont-ignite.html

1999-2004 BJB CJB fuse panel layout:
 
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rob65cars

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Thank you Sir,
I did attatch the ground from the frame rail to the motor mount, I also took the grounds around the raditator ( both sides) off and cleaned the mounting surface and connectors.
I will check the items you asked about, and post the results Monday.
I do not have a way to check the fuel pressure. I will pick up a fuel pressure tester and an ODB2 scanner today on the way home.
To check the MAF flow, I would need the engine running?
Thanks again!!!
Rob
 

wmburns

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To check the MAF flow, I would need the engine running?
You check the MAF flow while the motor is cranking. The idea is to see if it changes during cranking. This will prove that the MAF is sending a signal and the PCM is "seeing" it.

An alternate test is to disconnect the MAF which will make the PCM use default values. This can be useful if there's an intake leak which is making the MAF under report air flow.

ODB2 devices come in different flavors and are not all the same.
  • ODB2 readers are generally budget devices that just read DTC codes.
  • Generic ODB2 scanners can read some generic ODB2 PID's. These are usually mid grade devices. No manufacture specific PID's.
  • Higher end scanners that can read manufacture specific PID's. No two way communication
  • Highest end ODB2 scanners and engage in "two way" communication with the PCM. This allows you to "command" the PCM to take various actions that can be very helpful in trouble shooting. For example being able to command the cooling fan to run.
Having the ability to graph data over time is a plus. Having the ability to graph multiple PID's at the same time is a double plus.
 
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rob65cars

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Morning,
I got the fuel pressure gauge, and checked the fuel pressure. at first fuel pump prime (key first turn to run position) 40-45 psi, trying to start engine 90 psi.
I did not get an ODB2 scanner, after reading your post Sat I went to our local O'Reillys and they have seven (Bosch brand) to choose from. I do not know which one to get or if one of these are what I need, can you advise on which one will suit me the best if any? I do not have a lap top for the one you suggested.

"There MUST be full battery voltage at EACH injector and COP the entire time that the key is on. IF there really is 6 to 8 volts as measured between supply and ground, this is a real problem." I went back and rechecked the COP connector, and on one side (w/r wire) I did get 12.6V (with the key on) after inserting a small old tig welding rod.
The other wire (o/? wire) is the wire that fluctuated between 6-8 v while trying to start.


"The voltage drop method could also be used between the red wire of each COP and battery positive. Test with the key on. A high voltage drop value would indicate there's a weak connection somewhere in the positive supply path."
I forgot to check this, I will check this afternoon and post tomorrow!!

"Did you re-installed the motor ground from the left hand motor mount to the frame rail?"
I did attach the ground from the frame rail to the motor mount, I also took the grounds around the raditator ( both sides) off and cleaned the mounting surface and connectors. I also added an extra ground from the battery to the engine and from the engine to the frame.



"Could be useful to measure ground voltage drop during cranking. Post.
I don't know if I did this correctly? Battery checked at 12.5v, I checked from the alternator case to battery positive while cranking 10.5v

"
CCRM pin #21 is the PCM AC clutch control. It's a signal wire that the PCM uses to enable/disable the AC clutch. Not your problem."
I went back and checked my notes when I was trying to figure out the anti theft issue, and the pin out (C1262) I have of the ccrm shows #21 being (Voltage supplied at all times (overload protected)). Do I have the incorrect one?

"An alternate test is to disconnect the MAF which will make the PCM use default values. This can be useful if there's an intake leak which is making the MAF under report air flow." I tried with the MAF unplugged and nothing changed.


I checked all the fuses (Both sides of the fuse) under the hood and under the dash all checked good consistent with the battery voltage.
One fuse checks funny? #35. #35 only checked good when I applied the brake. My notes show that #41 which checks good when I apply the brake. Is this the way it is supposed to work?

While I was in the engine bay checking items I heard a humming noise, I isolated it to be coming from the alternator, I disconnected the + wire and the humming stopped. I tried to start the car again no start.

I hope I have covered all you asked of me except for the one about the
voltage drop between the red wire of each COP. (Red wire, My COPs don't have a red wire, I should check the power wire when the key is on?)
Thanks Again for your help!!!
Rob
 

wmburns

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You are not understand HOW the voltage drop test works. The leads of the VOM go onto the SAME polarity. Yes I know that does not seem correct. Trust me it is for the voltage drop test. To measure the ground side during cranking put one lead on the alternator case and the other lead on battery NEGATIVE.

Note, if you we trying to trouble shoot a cranking issue then one VOM lead on the starter case and the other lead on battery negative. This will give a direct reading of the amount of voltage drop (loss) from the current flow between the two devices. Very useful information when trying to track down a weak high resistance electrical connection.

However if getting a system total of 10.5 volts during cranking likely means that there's enough voltage at the motor.

When measuring the control side of a COP or injector the voltage is so low because it's being pulsed by the PCM. Not a very useful test if you are trying to confirm there's enough voltage. The fact that there's battery voltage available at the other side likely says that they are OK.

OK. We know there's fuel pressure at the rail. However, do we know what the PCM "thinks" the fuel pressure is. Why is this important? Because the fuel rail pressure sensor (FRPS) is a "no start" sensor. The easiest way to confirm this is with an ODB2 scanner. Simply ask the PCM what the fuel pressure is. If it not close to the external gauge with the motor not running, then find out why. If it's ZERO then likely you have one of the keys to the puzzle.

Other PID's that would be useful are:
  • MAF flow during cranking. This will indicate that the MAF is sending a signal and it's responding to a change in air flow.
  • RPM's. This is indicate that the CKP sensor is sending a valid signal and that the PCM is "seeing" it.
  • Fuel pressure (FRPS) has already been mentioned.

As regards to which ODB2 scanner is best for you. That depends upon your budget and how much work on cars that you plan on doing. I'm a big believer in the old saying of "know your enemy". The better ODB2 scanners have the possibility of making more information about "the enemy" available to you.

However. For the longest time I had a simple one line ODB2 reader that could only access generic ODB2 data (Auto X-ray). At the time I thought that simple reader was a Godsend. I personally have fixed many cars using that simple one line generic ODB2 reader.

I do not recommend getting a cheap DTC code reader. At the very least get one that will access ODB2 generic PID's.

Has a compression test been run on this motor? Does it make normal repeating "chug chug" sounds during cranking?

Have you confirmed there is actual spark at the COP's with a spark tester?

Have you reviewed the entire "crank with no start" check list?
 
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rob65cars

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["wmburns, ]
"To measure the ground side during cranking put one lead on the alternator case and the other lead on battery NEGATIVE."
I measured at .13 - .08 If I measured it correctly?

["wmburns"]
"Has a compression test been run on this motor?
The compression checked between 150-155

["wmburns"]
Does it make normal repeating "chug chug" sounds during cranking?"
It actuall sounds like it starts for a split second but never does.
The more I try to start it the less it sounds like it want to start. After letting it sit for a few minutes it starts over (first acts like it wants to start then the more I try the less it sounds like it want to start)

["wmburns"]
Have you confirmed there is actual spark at the COP's with a spark tester?
I bought a generic spark tester (wire with a glass bowl in line) It does have a spark but seams weak to me?

["wmburns"]
Have you reviewed the entire "crank with no start" check list?
Yes I have reviewed the check list and have a question on one of the checks?
1. "Its always good to idea to confirm that the Alternator is good", mine is making a humming noise as noted above
["rob65cars"]
While I was in the engine bay checking items I heard a humming noise, I isolated it to be coming from the alternator, I disconnected the + wire and the humming stopped. I tried to start the car again no start.

Last night while making checks I noticed a strong smell of gas, I checked for leaks but didn't see any. Got around to the rear of the car and noticed the smell was coming from the exhaust. One of your questions was if a
compression test been run. With that said I decided to pull the plugs in order to do the compression test. The plugs were clean and wet with fuel, Actually only one plug looked as if it had been firing. With that said I bought a box of parts from a fellow and I used the plugs, coils, 24lb injectors? and O2 sensors. injectors are XR3E-C5B, Plugs areTR55IX, 2 of the O2 sensors ES10139 by Delphi, the other 2 sensors are 22016 by Delphi? These may play some role in this, I was told these would work on my engine.?
 

wmburns

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Just wondering. Has this car got a tune for larger injectors? My research says that the 2000 Mustang GT came with 19 lb/hr. If you have used 24 lb/hr injectors without a tune this will result in over fueling by 26%

I don't think the alternator is keeping this motor from starting.

Voltage drop of .13 - .08 during cranking is very good. Motor grounding is not likely the problem here.

I'm concerned about the quality of the spark. A modern car has a very strong spark. The times I have used a spark tester there was no doubt about it.

If asking for an educated guess, my vote is excessive fuel from larger injectors coupled with weak spark. It does take more spark energy to ignite very rich or lean mixtures. You have two factors working against you.
 

rob65cars

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["wmburns"]
Just wondering. Has this car got a tune for larger injectors? My research says that the 2000 Mustang GT came with 19 lb/hr. If you have used 24 lb/hr injectors without a tune this will result in over fueling by 26%
I don't know if the car/engine has a tune, this set up I have never had it running. Bought the car 99 Mustang basket case back in 2010 with a salvage title and last year I bought a 2000 v6 car with a clean title that ran. I swapped the two engines putting the v8 in the 2000. The v6 swap went well. Sooooo, the 2000 has the engine/trans and wiring from a 1999.
I was thinking (scary) when I was trying to figure out the theft issue it may have fouled the plugs, and from what you said about the over fueling
now make sense.
Do you know the recommended plug range for the engine, I saw where someone was using motor craft sp-505 (AGSF-22C) for normal street use and AWSFA-12C for street/strip use?

["wmburns"]
If asking for an educated guess, my vote is excessive fuel from larger injectors coupled with weak spark. It does take more spark energy to ignite very rich or lean mixtures. You have two factors working against you.
I will try to find some 19lb injectors and swap them out.

Any idea on the plugs and what about the fuse and no power on fuse #35, see below.

["rob65cars"]
I checked all the fuses (Both sides of the fuse) under the hood and under the dash all checked good consistent with the battery voltage.
One fuse checks funny? #35. #35 only checked good when I applied the brake. My notes show that #41 which checks good when I apply the brake. Is this the way it is supposed to work?


And the issue on CCRM pin #21 with no power?

Thanks for you taking time to look at my issue/s!!
Thanks again,
Rob
 

wmburns

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F2.35 is only supposed to have power with the brake pedal depressed.

Note. PATS works by withholding the fuel injector pulse. So if trouble shooting a PATS issue it's not possible to foul the spark plugs because there's no fuel being introduced. If the plugs are fouled it will be from the attempts made AFTER the PATS problem was solved.

The heat range of the spark plugs are not going to prevent the motor from starting.

The fuses that matter to starting the motor were given in the crank with no start check list. F2.21, F2.34, F2.2, and F2.8. The fact that you have some spark and a fuel injector pulse indicates that:
  • PATS has proved out (if PATS is tripped there's no injector pulse).
  • the PCM is getting a CKP signal
  • That the ignition fuse F2.2 has power (this is were the COP's and injectors are powered from).
  • If you want to know if fuse F2.8 also has power then look for power at the O2 sensor heater circuit. Note, I doubt a blown F2.8 fuse would prevent the motor from starting.
If you are interested in getting a full copy of the Ford service manual with wiring diagrams for your car I maybe able to help. PM if interested.
 
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wmburns

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I will let you know if the plugs don't help.
Having the wrong heat range spark plugs are not going to prevent the motor from starting. Think about it. All motors are stone cold when they are first started. The heat range helps to prevent fouling during extended running.

But if you feel that a weak spark is in play one way to get around this is be closing the gap.

EDIT; Also check to see what the PCM "thinks" is the input air temperature (IAT). An open circuit IAT will read -40 degrees. This will result in a hard/no start condition due to the incorrect fuel mixture being used for the actual air temperature.
 
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rob65cars

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Thanks!!!!
I should have said, I will let you know if the new plugs and "injectors" don't work. I forgot to add the important one (injectors)!!!

["wmburns,"]
Also check to see what the PCM "thinks" is the input air temperature (IAT). An open circuit IAT will read -40 degrees. This will result in a hard/no start condition due to the incorrect fuel mixture being used for the actual air temperature.
How do I go about this, would I need a scanner? The scanners that O'Reillys have don't allow two way commination (bi directional).
Thanks again,
Rob
 

wmburns

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You don't need bi-directional communication to READ a PID. Bi-directional communication is for when you want to command the PCM to do something. Say turn on/off the cooling fan. Or close/open an EVAP value. Or run a test.

A generic ODB2 reader should be able to access IAT as well as any other PID's from the Generic ODB2 list.
 

rob65cars

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10-4 on the scanners, I miss understood...
Looks like it will next week before I get the parts in and maybe next weekend before I get them installed and tested. I will keep you informed after there installed.
Thanks again,
Rob
 

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