331 With turbo runs hot

1990turbo · Sep 15, 2011

I have a 331 Dart with a 76mm turbo ported cobra intake tfs heads and 55lbs injectors alum radiator and black magic extreme fan. I just got it running recently its a new shortblock. I havent been able to find anyone around where I live to tune it yet. We have very few tuners around here and I have heard horror stories about them all. The car is actually running pretty good except it gets a little hotter than i would like. On the highway last night in about 15 miles in 60deg outside temps it got to 200 and was going about 60mph. I dont dare drive it in traffic when its hot out I have seen the temps to about 235. It has the stock wp on it right now with a highflow tstat 160deg. Would i benefit from a high flow wp and how much better would the cooling be. I know a guy that has an Edelbrock highflow that he wants a 100 for just wondering is it would be worth it and maybe you guys might have any ideas of what else could cause it to get hot. oh and the fan is always on when the car is running. Any ideas greatly appreciated. Thanks.

FastDriver · Sep 15, 2011

I don't think you'd benefit from a high flow water pump, but I'm sure you'll get a salesman to tell you that's what you need. You've seen my car, and my stock pump is plenty. I think the high flow pump may be the smart play in a race car, but is not necessary in a street car. I'm running a stock waterpump with no issue.

What you really need is a damned good radiator, and a fan that pulls plenty of air. I don't know what radiator you're using, but if it's not a 3-row at least, then you should look at another one. I bought an expensive Ron Davis setup, but there are other cheaper radiators that will get the job done.

On a turbo car, getting something to draw that air is SUPER important. I don't see an A/C on your car, so you probably don't have a condenser, but I'll bet there's still an intercooler up there in front. I'm not a big fan of black magic, but they apparently rate the extreme to flow 3000 to 3300 CFM. That's pretty good. My twin spals (see pictures in my thread) are rated at 3400 CFM, and definitely flow enough to pull the air necessary to keep my car cool.

Still, I have two points related to fans: first, is your electrical system up to par? Second, is your fan drawing from the entire surface area of the radiator?

electrical system: It looks like you're running a stock alternator. The alternator in the stock fox is only 75 amps (can't remember which), and keep in mind that's maximum output, not output at idle. At idle, according for Ford Muscle web magazine that 75 amp alternator is only pushing a little more than 20 amps altogether. That fan is supposed to be drawing 18 amps (rated). However, if the alternator is not pumping out enough to keep everything else that draws power, the fan is not really pulling its rated flow.

Surface area: Your fans are working most efficiently if they're pulling from the entire radiator. That forces air across all of the fins and maximizes heat transfer. It's difficult to see on mine, but the fans are mounted on a shroud that covers the entire surface of the radiator. My old black magic fan came with a shroud that barely covered the fan. It probably took up a little over half of the radiator surface, but left a lot of the radiator on each side of the shroud.

All that said, if you're not cooling at 60mph, then it's not all about your fan. You could still have a flow problem - check to see if the air diverter is still under the car. If it isn't, replace it. However, more than likely, the radiator is not doing a good job, and should be upgraded. If you have a performance radiator but it's old, you might consider flushing it a couple times.

The T-stat is not your issue. As long as it fully opens, it's doing its job. If you're really worried about it, you can pull it out to see if that allows your car to cool. Or you can replace it since they're cheap, anyway. No point in having a 160, unless that's what you want your car to run at. I'd recommend a 185. The problem is that if you're running a 160 and an efficient radiator, then on the highway where you're getting plenty of flow, your car will actually run at 160. That can affect the tune in the stock computer. It's also too cold for a motor, in my opinion. That's basically it.

Good luck,

Chris

1990turbo · Sep 15, 2011

I do have a huge aluminum radiator and looks really clean inside. I have heard that stock pumps dont last well with high rpm. My intercooler is laid out flat under the radiator and whoever put the turbo kit in used the air diverter to form like a wall around the back of the ic to make like a scoop. so if i put the diverter back where it belongs then no flow thru the ic. And yes the fan takes up pretty much the whole radiator just a little showing on the sides. Also your right about the alt way not enough for my car i have way too many electronics in my car for that thing its on my list of things to upgrade. my battery got so low at the strip from running the fan my trans brake stopped working. I have an accel gen 6 dfi and an mssd 7AL2 ignition and a 500lph pump so lots of electrical. Baack to the pump I had the cap off and let the car get up to temp when the tstat opened up it diddnt look like i was getting much flow through the passages just kind of trickling out the ends reved it up came out a little faster but not much. Its not running lean I see like around 13 afr while cruising. Timing is set at 28 total but i dont know what my dfi is set at as far as timing and how much it pulls when on the gas. So what cha thinkin now

Rick 91GT · Sep 15, 2011

What fan is currently on the car? Does it have a shroud to help pull the air from the hot rad? What thermostat is in the car? What pound cap is on the radiator?

I have a customer with a DART Iron Eagle big bore 347ci,700hp 76mm turbo car, custom dual pass Ron Davis, RNH alum shroud, SPAL fan and controller, no thermo stat but a 1" O.D restrictor, stock water pump, stock 93 Cobra water pump pulley. It likes to run right at 190 in the heat, when it goes through town it may climb to 200 but the car has A/C so at low speed the airflow is not ideal with the condensor in the way. I run a DEI turbo blanket, and wrap all the hotside, this helps a lot with underhood temps and heat soak. With some airflow the car will cruise at 160-170 degrees.... I run distilled water,very little antifreeze and a bottle of Engine Ice by Royal Purple, I actually saw a difference with the engine ice.

The issue with a 160 degree stat is it will not allow the water to stay in the radiator long enough for the radiator to do its job and cool the fluid down.

FastDriver · Sep 15, 2011

Rick, I hear it all the time, but that last comment is a load of horse-hockey! A t-stat is just a restriction in the cooling system designed to get a motor to a temperature and keep it there. If you pull the t-stat out of a car that's already working, the only difference will be that the motor takes longer to warm up (more coolant to bring to temp) and that it keeps the motor colder when you can't regulate the air that goes through the radiator (like when you're cruising). Otherwise, the hotter average temps in the radiator are actually going to increase the transfer of heat from the radiator overall. Test this out if you don't believe it.

90turbo, I know the type of IC you're referring to and had one on my old incon twin setup.

Either way, it's time to get to work:
1. Start with the T-stat since it is cheap. Pull it. Before you replace, test it first to see if it fully opens where it is supposed to (bowl of water and a thermometer). Drive the car and see what happens. If the temps are still high, you can rule out the T-stat.
2. Check to make sure that the hoses are not being pinched... especially when reved.... something I've seen before. If it happens, it's going to suck the bottom hose closed. A spring can fix this problem
3. Next, try the water wetter, or "engine ice" that Rick mentioned.
4. While you're in there, check coolant mix - should be 50/50 anti-freeze & water. The more anti-freeze you add, the less efficient the coolant mix will be in disapating heat.
5. Loose or slipping belt - check for squeeling or glazing of the belt and correct tension on belt. If the water pump ain't turning as it is supposed to, then the best radiator and fans in the world aren't gonna keep the water in the motor at a good temp
6. Radiator cap faulty - as Rick said, if your cap is no good, then water will boil at a lower temperature causing significant problems for your cooling system (gas in the block, over flow, flow issues, etc...)
7. Air trapped in coolant system - purge coolant system
8. Ignition timing to far advanced - over advanced engines cause the engine to run hotter. Yours sounds fine
9. Trash in between radiator/condensor - often times you'll have a lot of leaves and other trash in between the condensor and the radiator - blocking air flow. Obviously not likely in your case
10. Inadequate airflow through radiator (missing baffling, shroud).
11. Insufficient cooling from radiator (either too small, clogged up, or fins bent) - have radiator serviced and make sure it's in good condition and correct for the application.
12. Fan issues
13. Impeller or pulleys incorrect for application - underdrive pulleys will turn the waterpump slower - and reduce the amount of cooling. Aftermarket waterpumps may spin the impeller slower as well.
14. Blown Head Gasket or cracked head - leaking exhaust into water jacket - You can check for hydrocarbons in the coolant and perform a compression test to determine if the head gasket is blown. Also, your oil may have coolant in it turning it into what looks like chocolate milk

Good luck

90lxcoupe · Sep 16, 2011

Do you have a radiator air deflector? I put a big one on my car and it really helped on the highway.

1990turbo · Sep 16, 2011

90lxcoupe said:
Do you have a radiator air deflector? I put a big one on my car and it really helped on the highway.

It did but someone turned it into a scoop for the Intercooler.

1990turbo · Sep 16, 2011

Just about everything that has been recomended has been looked at and or I feel is not an issue. Its driving me crazy. I am going to change the waterpump cause I feel that is the next step. If thats not it next will be a different fan the one that is on already is a shrouded fan covering about 97% of the radiator also gonna get atleast a 140 amp alt. to run all this stuff. Thanks guys for all the help thus far I will let ya all know how it goes. If you have any more ideas that pop up let me know.

FastDriver · Sep 16, 2011

It's your car, your work and your money. I can only suggest that you start over. Go step by step through what I posted and you'll find the problem.

If you think the fan is the problem, then take it off. Go for a cruise. If at 60mph your engine temps don't stay down, air-flow isn't the problem.

For me, despite my 3-row Ford radiator, it just wasn't doing the job. I replaced it with the ron davis and the twin-fans. The radiator had no problems keep my temps down for a couple of weeks before I put the fans on - as long as I was able to move over about 30mph.

1990turbo · Sep 16, 2011

I totally agree with you im just saying that I have looked at and tried pretty much all that and the w/p is just about the only thing I havnt replaced yet. Here is a pic of the radiator if you can see it its a good sized one and is clean as hell inside. The cap is a Moroso 14-16lbs i think and my antifreeze to water is right about 50/50 Maybe a little more water. Also do new motors run a bit hotter than a motor with more miles on it? Im guessing my motor has about 1500 on it right now. Belive me I dont want to go and buy another Dart block just yet.

LarsD · Sep 16, 2011

I think if you ran through FD's list you'd stand a good chance of figuring out what the problem is. That being said, yes, new engines with tight rings do run hotter until they wear in a bit. Though with 1500 miles on it, I would expect it to be starting to loosen up by now. Also, I was going to put a stock replacement pump on my 347, but ended up buying an Edelbrock instead, lemme tell ya, you can feel where the extra money gets spent, it is a very nice piece.

rdharper02 · Sep 16, 2011

Are you running the motor with the timing spout installed? Without removing the electronic advance, you will run into heat problems. Before I get flamed. I agree with much of the logic above, and went through most of it and found that (even though I could not hear detonation) the advance was causing heat problems. Further, most out of the box turbo companies will tell you to disable it by removing the spout. If you get tuned, you can have it set to utilize the function or have the tuner remove it. Rick (above) would probably be the one to talk to on that. If its out, sorry for the long winded writing.

Second, leave the 160.

FastDriver · Sep 16, 2011

Well, choosing the temp range for your T-stat is certainly a matter of opinion. A 160* engine will make more power than a 185* engine, which will make more power than a 195* engine, given all else is constant. However, with oil at 160F, you'll see added cylinder wall wear. The oil should get hot to lubricate well (about 200F). Additionally, cold temps do not evacuate condensation on the internals of the engine either, so theres added wear due to that, too. There is no magic temperature to get to for this condensation to boil out. 212F is what they say, which is technically not wrong, but even if average temps are lower, the oil will still reach that temperature as it cycle. It'll just take a little longer to get that condensation out of the system. That's also why you see production cars bring temps into the 220* range before turning on their fans (even my aluminum LS1).

Usually the oil temps end up about 15-25F hotter than coolant. So with the 160 it should level out at 185, on a cold day. Only on very cold winter days will the engine not get there (I'm from FL though, not Alaska). It doesn't mean the engine's going to self-destruct, but just gives you some food for thought when choosing the appropriate T-stat. For me, I don't see the point in running a T-stat that low. If I'm out at the strip, I can let the car cool between runs back down to lower temps. Since my car is street driven, I definitely prefer to let my oil temps get on up there a little.

OP, I really hope that the WP will solve it for you. I know cooling systems can be pretty frustrating. The points that stick out are that you couldn't get the car below 200 degrees despite the fact that you should have had plenty of airflow at 60 mph. That should eliminate everything air flow related.

Something else I should've added to the list is getting a new coolant temp sensor. Maybe yours is just off?

JungleJoe · Sep 17, 2011

Somewhat a "cooling" guy, dealing with v8 s10's with ac, if you can get that under control, you can cool anything......One of the main things is getting air to move "though" the radiater, not "around" it. You say its not tuned, is it running lean?

Rick 91GT · Sep 17, 2011

Chris, I hear ya on the stat issue, I still have some old timers that still swear a too low thermo will not allow a cooling system to function.

Like I said on the turbo car I mentioned I run no thermo at all just a 1" od restrictor.

OP- can u post some pics of your modded scoop and no deflector.

Rick 91GT · Sep 17, 2011

Chris, no luck on the transporter yet...

Incon · Sep 18, 2011

What intake gaskets are you using?

Incon · Sep 18, 2011

Pump gas I assume?

4rdnut · Sep 18, 2011

If you have the controller that came with the black magic fan, throw it in the garbage and get the flexalite variable speed controller and wire the negative override manual on switch to it and you will have no more problems. The controller that came with my black magic extreme #185 fan was pure junk, it would turn on and off at all different temps. I complained to flexalite and they sent me a vsc controller for nothing. If you have the #175 black magic fan then thats your problem also with no shroud. I have the edelbrock victor series wp, top quality.

1990turbo · Sep 19, 2011

4rdnut said:
If you have the controller that came with the black magic fan, throw it in the garbage and get the flexalite variable speed controller and wire the negative override manual on switch to it and you will have no more problems. The controller that came with my black magic extreme #185 fan was pure junk, it would turn on and off at all different temps. I complained to flexalite and they sent me a vsc controller for nothing. If you have the #175 black magic fan then thats your problem also with no shroud. I have the edelbrock victor series wp, top quality.

The fan has a full shroud and there is no controller it is on a toggle when it gets to 160 I turn it on and leave it on.

JungleJoe not running lean at about 13 a/f at cruising speeds.

Incon Yes pump gas and Felpro intake gaskets.

331 With turbo runs hot

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