Blackhawkxx
Advanced Member
- Mar 3, 2023
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- 462
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351 Cleveland swapped MII
- Thread starter 78 Mach1
- Start date
Looka all that good stuff under there and all the neat Fords in your shop.
Engine plate looks good
Now we know where all that green paint everywhere came from.
Engine plate looks good
Now we know where all that green paint everywhere came from.
I got the motor mounts welding done and they are now painted. I’m about to start the manual steering conversion. There are obviously many available options for the rack since everyone seems to like the Mustang II front suspension and steering for there hot rods. A quick search revealed different manual steering rack options. A 2.5 turn lock to lock. A 3 turn lock to lock. A 4 turn lock to lock and even a 4.5 turn lock to lock. I had no idea so many options existed. The number of turns lock to lock obviously comes down to the gear ratio. My simple mind assumes a 2.5 turn lock to lock will give quicker steering response but be much more difficult to turn in tight spots like parking lots. And at the opposite end, a 4.5 turn lock to lock would be much less effort to turn but would be way less responsive for spirited driving. My current power steering rack is 2.5 turns lock to lock. I checked yesterday.
Does anyone on here have experience with different ratio steering racks? I’m trying to decide which one would be the perfect compromise. I know my current rack is pretty tough to turn when moving around in the shop. So I obviously want to go with something more than 2.5. But I also don’t want my car to feel like my 69 F100 steering either. That thing can do a 1/4 turn of the steering wheel before you get any response in the front end. I definitely want this car tighter than that. So basically, I’m looking for recommendations on which manual steering rack to get.
Does anyone on here have experience with different ratio steering racks? I’m trying to decide which one would be the perfect compromise. I know my current rack is pretty tough to turn when moving around in the shop. So I obviously want to go with something more than 2.5. But I also don’t want my car to feel like my 69 F100 steering either. That thing can do a 1/4 turn of the steering wheel before you get any response in the front end. I definitely want this car tighter than that. So basically, I’m looking for recommendations on which manual steering rack to get.
Can someone with a factory manual steering Mustang II tell me how many turns of their steering wheel they get from lock to lock? Trying to determine what will be acceptable for ease of steer but still not feel like I’m sailing a ship.
Go with the slow ratio, IE 4.5 turns lock to lock. The car will steer so much easier compared to a quick ratio 2.5-3.0 lock to lock.
I have the slow ratio manual rack in the race car and it is not much different than P/S, except at a dead stop, where it is a little harder.
I run a Flaming River manual rack.
I have the slow ratio manual rack in the race car and it is not much different than P/S, except at a dead stop, where it is a little harder.
I run a Flaming River manual rack.
Another consideration to keep in mind is your front tire size. It will be tougher to turn at slow speeds or a complete stop with wider tires. I run a 165/80-15 tire and it's pretty easy in comparison to a power steering rack that's not being pressurized by the pump. I think if you were to go a lot wider than that you'd definitely get a workout at low speeds. High speeds aren't an issue for me and it doesn't seem like I have to turn the wheel a lot to make a curve or anything. So my opinion is that it's just about the perfect balance.
I’m running 195/60/15 on the front on I believe 3.5 or 4” wide welds. Can’t remember exact wheel width. It’s been too many years since I ordered them. But they are pretty narrow. So hopefully that will work in my favor as far as turning effort.
I see several posts of 4 to 4.5 turn lock to lock racks. I assume they are the same just depending on the accuracy of the person counting. You’ve definitely got me convinced the 4 to 4.5 turn lock to lock is the way to go.
Does anyone know for sure if this is the Mustang II factory original ratio?
Flaming River website lists PN FR1502 as having 5.0 turns lock to lock. They sell shortened version like PN FR1502 2x2 and list it as having 4.0 turns lock to lock. But it has been shortened 2” making overall length 43” rather than the factory 45” length the Mustang II came with. I don’t think I could use the 43” rack and still have enough adjustment to get my alignment correct. I’m confused why the original length 45” rack from flaming river is advertised at 5.0 turns. Also flaming river is damn proud of their rack at $370 plus shipping. They do list PN FR1502 9 as a kit that comes with rod ends and bushings and an advertised ratio of 4.0 turns lock to lock for a whopping $505.
Rock auto lists a Mustang II manual racks for around $120. But they don’t specify the ratio or turns lock to lock. I assume they will be whatever was factory original. But I’m still not sure what the factory rack was turn to turn.
LILCBRA. You didn’t specify if your rack is the factory one or not.
Summit racing, Jegs, and Speedway Motors all list racks in the $170 to $220 price range. But they all say 3.5 turns lock to lock.
It seems getting the correct 4 - 4.5 ratio and not over paying for it requires a ton of research.
If the factory rack is 4 to 4.5 turns ratio. Then I’m golden. Rockauto has them cheap. The front suspension and steering is the only thing on this car with excellent aftermarket support where I shouldn’t have to pay custom special order prices. There for I am trying to take advantage of that and not have to over pay for once during this build.
The key to me taking advantage of this savings is knowing, is the factory mustang II manual steering rack 4-4.5 turns lock to lock?
I see several posts of 4 to 4.5 turn lock to lock racks. I assume they are the same just depending on the accuracy of the person counting. You’ve definitely got me convinced the 4 to 4.5 turn lock to lock is the way to go.
Does anyone know for sure if this is the Mustang II factory original ratio?
Flaming River website lists PN FR1502 as having 5.0 turns lock to lock. They sell shortened version like PN FR1502 2x2 and list it as having 4.0 turns lock to lock. But it has been shortened 2” making overall length 43” rather than the factory 45” length the Mustang II came with. I don’t think I could use the 43” rack and still have enough adjustment to get my alignment correct. I’m confused why the original length 45” rack from flaming river is advertised at 5.0 turns. Also flaming river is damn proud of their rack at $370 plus shipping. They do list PN FR1502 9 as a kit that comes with rod ends and bushings and an advertised ratio of 4.0 turns lock to lock for a whopping $505.
Rock auto lists a Mustang II manual racks for around $120. But they don’t specify the ratio or turns lock to lock. I assume they will be whatever was factory original. But I’m still not sure what the factory rack was turn to turn.
LILCBRA. You didn’t specify if your rack is the factory one or not.
Summit racing, Jegs, and Speedway Motors all list racks in the $170 to $220 price range. But they all say 3.5 turns lock to lock.
It seems getting the correct 4 - 4.5 ratio and not over paying for it requires a ton of research.
If the factory rack is 4 to 4.5 turns ratio. Then I’m golden. Rockauto has them cheap. The front suspension and steering is the only thing on this car with excellent aftermarket support where I shouldn’t have to pay custom special order prices. There for I am trying to take advantage of that and not have to over pay for once during this build.
The key to me taking advantage of this savings is knowing, is the factory mustang II manual steering rack 4-4.5 turns lock to lock?
My car was originally a power steering car, so when I opted to go with a manual rack I just went the junk yard route. I asked for one for a MII and this is what they gave me. I didn't pull it from a car myself so I don't know for sure if it's a factory II rack or not, so I guess I can't help with that part. But I'm sure it's a factory Ford part.... 
Looking at O'Reilly's site now - they list the same part number for the II as they do a Pinto. So even if that's what it's from it seems like a better than good chance that the II would be the same ratio. Of course we all know how Pinto/II interchanges sometimes goes - most of the time there's no problem, but every once in a while.... 
Long story short, I think the Rock Auto choice would work well.
One thing to keep in mind though - as I ran into this - you'll need a Borgeson joint. I don't remember the sizes off the top of my head, but I used a 3/4 round on one end and the correct spline on the other (I think it was 9/16 but don't remember the spline count), then cut the rag joint from the intermediate shaft at a workable length and welded the joint into place. Here's the only pic I have of anything related to the rack and pinion. You can see how close it sits with a 302 with headers in it's standard location, hopefully moving a Cleveland over an inch will help give you enough clearance considering the different angle of the exhaust exit.
Looking at O'Reilly's site now - they list the same part number for the II as they do a Pinto. So even if that's what it's from it seems like a better than good chance that the II would be the same ratio. Of course we all know how Pinto/II interchanges sometimes goes - most of the time there's no problem, but every once in a while.... Long story short, I think the Rock Auto choice would work well.
One thing to keep in mind though - as I ran into this - you'll need a Borgeson joint. I don't remember the sizes off the top of my head, but I used a 3/4 round on one end and the correct spline on the other (I think it was 9/16 but don't remember the spline count), then cut the rag joint from the intermediate shaft at a workable length and welded the joint into place. Here's the only pic I have of anything related to the rack and pinion. You can see how close it sits with a 302 with headers in it's standard location, hopefully moving a Cleveland over an inch will help give you enough clearance considering the different angle of the exhaust exit.
That does help. I can order the rockauto one and then count the turns when it arrives. If it isn’t 4 to 4.5. I can always return it. But the fact that’s what you were given gives me more hope. I’ve heard of people ordering a 4 turn rack in the fox body world and getting a 2.5. That’s why I was so adamant. Like they say. 1 try is worth a 1000 theories. So I’ll give it a shot.
Now about that joint. I did read about that in my research. At this point in time, my understanding is I need a single u joint that is 3/4” round on one end and 9/16-26 on the other to adapt the manual rack to my power steering shaft. Soeedway Motors sells them for like $69. I did assume cutting the rag joint off would be necessary. But I was questioning if having two u joints on the steering arm was normal or acceptable. I obviously have one u joint further up the steering rod right at the firewall and will now have a second down at the steering rack. Is that how yours is now? I’m sure that is right, but my brain just keeps telling me that would create some slop.
Also, is the 3/4” round end of your adaptor smooth inside? Or does it have some sort of splines or flat spot to grip the shaft and not slip?
Now about that joint. I did read about that in my research. At this point in time, my understanding is I need a single u joint that is 3/4” round on one end and 9/16-26 on the other to adapt the manual rack to my power steering shaft. Soeedway Motors sells them for like $69. I did assume cutting the rag joint off would be necessary. But I was questioning if having two u joints on the steering arm was normal or acceptable. I obviously have one u joint further up the steering rod right at the firewall and will now have a second down at the steering rack. Is that how yours is now? I’m sure that is right, but my brain just keeps telling me that would create some slop.
Also, is the 3/4” round end of your adaptor smooth inside? Or does it have some sort of splines or flat spot to grip the shaft and not slip?
I did get the trans tunnel clearanced today. Wow does that section of metal push in easy. And you honestly can’t even tell. It clearanced so well that it didn’t dent. The whole section just moved in. So I’m happy with that. Sorting out the steering and building an inspection plate are my next steps.
Oh and I also need a Holley Red electric pump if anyone has a spare laying around. Otherwise that will have to come next month.
Oh and I also need a Holley Red electric pump if anyone has a spare laying around. Otherwise that will have to come next month.
Also. Any regrets going from power steering to manual? I’m assuming yours was out of necessity like mine is. But just curious on your real world opinion. I really wanted to keep my power steering. But I just isn’t possible with the engine plate. And I need all the room I can get for headers.
Yes, I have the original U-joint at the top and the new one at the bottom, you can kinda see a small part of the original at the top in the pic I shared. The new one was a 3/4 smooth, and you'll have to grind or otherwise machine the original shaft to fit and weld it into place. I don't notice any kind of slop in my steering, I think it drives nice. I can say that it doesn't drive like a loose truck as you described - if anything I'd assume that it would actually feel tighter. Having a U-joint in place of a rag joint should stiffen it up a little in comparison. The loose truck feel is a worn steering box as I'm sure you're aware - I think the R&P almost completely eliminates that potential issue. 
Just remember to orient the new one correctly and you'll have something that shouldn't require any kind of attention for years to come.
I went with a manual rack just to get rid of the power steering pump, so it wasn't out of necessity in my case. I just wanted less to deal with and potentially increase power output.
No potential leaks, no pump whine, less stuff cluttering the engine bay, more clearance to do things if/when needed.... I have 0 regrets and would encourage anyone who wants to go down this road! But, like I said, there are a few caveats, tire size probably being the biggest one. You're somewhat limited with what you can comfortably use as far as width is concerned.....
Just remember to orient the new one correctly and you'll have something that shouldn't require any kind of attention for years to come.I went with a manual rack just to get rid of the power steering pump, so it wasn't out of necessity in my case. I just wanted less to deal with and potentially increase power output.
No potential leaks, no pump whine, less stuff cluttering the engine bay, more clearance to do things if/when needed.... I have 0 regrets and would encourage anyone who wants to go down this road! But, like I said, there are a few caveats, tire size probably being the biggest one. You're somewhat limited with what you can comfortably use as far as width is concerned.....
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Another plus of going manual rack is weight and complexity.
The manual rack will probably drop at least 20 lbs off of the nose, and now there are no P/S hoses to route or leak, No P/S pump frees up a ton of room.
Also less HP drag, and one less belt to worry about.
The manual rack will probably drop at least 20 lbs off of the nose, and now there are no P/S hoses to route or leak, No P/S pump frees up a ton of room.
Also less HP drag, and one less belt to worry about.
Blackhawkxx
Advanced Member
- Mar 3, 2023
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How did you deal with the spare tire well, just plate it over?Still waiting for the rack to come in from Rockauto. I also ordered the u joint adapter to replace rag joint from Speedway Motors.
In the mean time, I decided to complete my fuel cell setup. I installed the roll over valve and the vent tube.
I cut out the rear frame rails, factory wheel tubs and all sheet metal from the rear seat back. That included the spare tire well. I custom built frame rails, wheel tubs, and fuel cell cage. Once everything was in place and final welded. I only had the small areas around the fuel cell to worry about. That area got plated with thick sheet metal.
Heres a picture of that work in progress. I have more pictures somewhere but can’t find them right now. In this picture I was putting in the frame rails and was planning to save as much factory sheet metal as possible. But plans changed as soon as I decided to go the fuel cell route. Then everything got cut out.
Heres a picture of that work in progress. I have more pictures somewhere but can’t find them right now. In this picture I was putting in the frame rails and was planning to save as much factory sheet metal as possible. But plans changed as soon as I decided to go the fuel cell route. Then everything got cut out.
Well I thought I was going to have it easy. I just so happen to have a spare manual bell housing laying around for the mustang II. So I started to mock up and cut the plate to fit.
Cut it and tacked it in place. Did a test fit with my automatic tranny.
Well, I’m sure many of you on here smarter than me already know what happened. It didn’t fit. Apparently the auto bell housing puts the start in a slightly different location than the manual bell housing. I had no idea.
So here we are starting all over again. Lol
Cut it and tacked it in place. Did a test fit with my automatic tranny.
Well, I’m sure many of you on here smarter than me already know what happened. It didn’t fit. Apparently the auto bell housing puts the start in a slightly different location than the manual bell housing. I had no idea.
So here we are starting all over again. Lol
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