351W- engine won't turn after sitting

Skymarshal · Nov 5, 2004

Hi- I've got a '69 vert with a 351w that was running fine, then sat at a body shop for about a year.

Took the trans (FMX) off for overhaul, and when I was putting it back on, the engine was pretty hard to turn with a bar on the crank nut. As I was putting the bolts back in the flywheel, the last 1/4 rotation was REALLY tough, but I got it to turn far enough to get the bolt in. I just wrote it off to the compression.

Now, several months later, the engine won't budge at all. I've torked on the crankshaft nut as hard as I could, and tried the starter. It's an auto so the "roll it and pop the clutch" trick won't work.

What do you think? I thought rusted rings, so I sprayed quite a bit of PBlaster penetrant in the spark plug holes. No fix. I'm getting ready to pull the heads and hit the pistons with a block of wood.

Any ideas???

bnickel · Nov 5, 2004

you may not have engaged the torque converter onto the the input shaft of the tranny all the way, i did that once with the same engine/trans combo. quick question, when you hit the starter does it just make a loud metallic clank? if so i bet that is your problem

Skymarshal · Nov 5, 2004

Yes, the starter just clanks when engaged. I thought the trans wouldn't seat against the bell housing if the torque converter wasn't seated?

How did you fix the problem, since you can't rotate the flywheel to remove the bolts?

rbohm · Nov 5, 2004

Skymarshal said:
Yes, the starter just clanks when engaged. I thought the trans wouldn't seat against the bell housing if the torque converter wasn't seated?

How did you fix the problem, since you can't rotate the flywheel to remove the bolts?

the bellhousing can be torqued down even if the converter is not seated properly. all you can do is remove the tranny, at which point you should be able to turn the crank again so you can unbolt the converter.

bnickel · Nov 5, 2004

rbohm said:
the bellhousing can be torqued down even if the converter is not seated properly. all you can do is remove the tranny, at which point you should be able to turn the crank again so you can unbolt the converter.

that's how i did it

WORTH · Nov 5, 2004

pull the plugs and make sure it's not hydro-locked. If it was hard before you put the torque converter on there may be an engine problem there.

if it still doesn't turn put some oil down the cylinders and let it set a couple of days.. You can get better leverage by pulling the starter out and prying on the ring gear with a small prybar also.

Skymarshal · Nov 5, 2004

bnickel- when you had that happen to you, were you able to re-seat the torque converter and put the trans back on?

A local tranny shop said the same thing, but said the tranny's pump may be damaged and the converter (brand new) might need to be replaced. I'm pulling the tranny next week. I'll let you know if that was it!

bnickel · Nov 5, 2004

yes. i didn't have any problems at the time but it may have damaged the pump, as i had to replace it on the last rebuild but i drove the car with that tranny for at least 10 years and even had it rebuilt once after that incident, so i don't know for sure when the pump got damaged, the tranny has been rebuilt 3 times, the first 2 because i lost 2nd gear and the third because the 2nd rebuild was not done right

69 Rustang · Nov 8, 2004

The same thing happened to me when I rebuilt the motor in my 1986 F150. Once I figured out the problem (after installing and pulling the motor 3 times in one day by myself) the converter seated and I am still driving the truck to this day. That was 3+ years ago and 20,000 miles or so ago. I still think about possible damage though coming back to haunt...

Good luck!
Dave

Skymarshal · Nov 19, 2004

Update:

It wasn't the converter at all. It was an old fashioned case of rusted rings.

I ended up drilling holes in a 2' section of iron pipe and bolting it to the flywheel (with tranny pulled), and banging on it with a sledge. Plenty of penetrant in the spark plug holes, and presto, engine rotates fine now!

Lesson learned: when parking a car for an extended period of time, use fogging oil in the cylinders. It doesn't take much rust to lock the engine tight!

Max Power · Nov 20, 2004

I don't understand how you were able to turn the rusted rings initially, and then couldn't. That sounds really odd.

Skymarshal · Nov 20, 2004

Dunno. I was probably pushing a pistion into the area of rusted (or just dry) cylinder wall, and stopping there let it lock up. If I ever park a vehicle for an extended period of time again, I'll crank it for a few seconds every couple of months!

WORTH · Nov 21, 2004

Skymarshal said:
Dunno. I was probably pushing a pistion into the area of rusted (or just dry) cylinder wall, and stopping there let it lock up. If I ever park a vehicle for an extended period of time again, I'll crank it for a few seconds every couple of months!

thats not a real good idea either, cranking a dry engine can do more damage than it helps. just pour some oil down the cylinders.

another thing, you should never be in a hurry to free stuck rings, I would have filled the cylinders with oil and waited a week before attempting to turn it, your better off if the oil will free them rather than force.

the 312 in my '46 was frozen after sitting for 10 years, I pulled the carb and filled it to the top with oil and it was free the next weekend without any force at all.

pabear89 · Nov 21, 2004

Max Power said:
I don't understand how you were able to turn the rusted rings initially, and then couldn't. That sounds really odd.

What he did was run the pistons up and down the clyinder walls that prob had some surface rust from condinsation(sp) forming on the from temp changes.

All that he can hope for is that it did not crack a ring or lock them ointo the ring lands causing oil and pressure loss.

PB

blue66tang · Nov 21, 2004

Your ganna be lucky if you didnt do any damage. The oil thing is the best way to do it, and to take your time.

Skymarshal · Nov 22, 2004

I did use oil. Each cylinder had plenty of penetrating oil sprayed in it, which stayed there for three weeks before I started working to free the engine. I agree that oil should always be a part of freeing a seized engine. (a friend suggested using Coca-Cola, which he said his uncle had luck with in freeing seized tractor engines).

It still doesn't make sense why the engine seized in the first place. It was running before being parked for a year, so there should have been a film of oil on the cylinder walls, and the engine was never opened.

Hopefully there wasn't any damage or loss of compression. We'll see when the engine is started again (which will be soon!).

WORTH · Nov 22, 2004

Skymarshal said:
I did use oil. Each cylinder had plenty of penetrating oil sprayed in it, which stayed there for three weeks before I started working to free the engine. I agree that oil should always be a part of freeing a seized engine. (a friend suggested using Coca-Cola, which he said his uncle had luck with in freeing seized tractor engines).

It still doesn't make sense why the engine seized in the first place. It was running before being parked for a year, so there should have been a film of oil on the cylinder walls, and the engine was never opened.

Hopefully there wasn't any damage or loss of compression. We'll see when the engine is started again (which will be soon!).

If your oil rings work properly there isn't much oil on the walls above the piston, and over time it will run back down. And moisture is everywhere. That isn't uncommon to sieze after sitting.

PS. you said you sprayed oil in the cylinders, I was serious when I said I filled them threw the carb hole. The more the better

Edbert · Nov 22, 2004

WORTH said:
If your oil rings work properly there isn't much oil on the walls above the piston, and over time it will run back down. And moisture is everywhere. That isn't uncommon to sieze after sitting.

PS. you said you sprayed oil in the cylinders, I was serious when I said I filled them threw the carb hole. The more the better

Okay, my curiosity has gotten the better of me here...

You poured a quart (or more?) of motor oil right down into the intake?

What about any cyliders that had the intake valve closed, wont the runner just fill up with oil that would take a year to seep out completely?

How long would you have to wait for all the oil to seep past the rings before cranking it, since if any cylinders have a lot of oil in them you'll break a rod from hydraulic lock?

blue66tang · Nov 22, 2004

Edbert said:
Okay, my curiosity has gotten the better of me here...

You poured a quart (or more?) of motor oil right down into the intake?

What about any cyliders that had the intake valve closed, wont the runner just fill up with oil that would take a year to seep out completely?

How long would you have to wait for all the oil to seep past the rings before cranking it, since if any cylinders have a lot of oil in them you'll break a rod from hydraulic lock?

I was thinking the same thing.

WORTH · Nov 22, 2004

Edbert said:
Okay, my curiosity has gotten the better of me here...

You poured a quart (or more?) of motor oil right down into the intake?

What about any cyliders that had the intake valve closed, wont the runner just fill up with oil that would take a year to seep out completely?

How long would you have to wait for all the oil to seep past the rings before cranking it, since if any cylinders have a lot of oil in them you'll break a rod from hydraulic lock?

LOL, I pulled the carb off and left the manifold on, and filled it with all the scrap oil in the shop,trany fluid, engine oil, hydraulic fluid, all the half empty containers. I filled it til it was flush with the carb opening. That was ona saturday, the following saturday I pulled the plugs, put a breaker bar on the crank, and it was free, so I turned it over by hand a couple of revolutions, then I set up the starter and battery and cranked it over a few times with the plugs still out. Then it took me about an hour to put a carb on it, rig up a coffee can for gas and a toggle switch for ignition and I fired it up. It actually started instantly which was lucky cause it probubly would have oil fouled the plugs real quick, and smoked like a byplane with chemical sprayer

There was actually raw oil spitting out the tailpipe , that's the engine that is in the 46 right now, I have no idea how well it survived yet as I haven't fired it up for real yet. When I started it then It didnt have a cooling system so it only ran for about a minute, long enough to know it didn't rap and it would run. It'll probubly get fired up for realin the spring, I'll let you know how it turned out I'm broke so it isnt getting pulled apart unless it absolutely has to. I'm just gonna paint it up pretty and hope for the best. I've done this several times in the past and always made out well, we'll see.

351W- engine won't turn after sitting

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