hey guys im new on here so i was wanting to get some opinions on something i have been tossing around. im doing a swap in my car putting a 351w in it and im putting the stage two trick flow cam and different springs on stock heads and was wanting to hear what you all thot of the down side in doing this. now take in mind i know the ford heads are crappy flowing heads, i do however have in my plans to change out the heads later but was curious to how bad or crappy will the motor perform in my car til i do so. thanks for the tid bits.
351w swap 94 gt
- Thread starter suprdave
- Start date
No real downside. The stock heads are pretty crappy. Are you using the stock E7s on the windsor at first?
Kurt
Kurt
yeah going to run e7's for a bit til i get money saved up for aluminum ones maybe later. but i know how the aluminum heads flow much better then stock... but the e7's are the better stock heads to run. im thinking on doing the porting and some polishing myself, changing springs and put them on.
I wouldn't waste time porting and polishing them, just wait till you can afford good aluminum ones. It will work fine, but you won't make any more noticable power over a stock engine.
Kurt
Kurt
ok soo you all are saying that with a stage two trick flow cam, new springs in the heads and fresh motor in the car that with the stock heads on a 351 im only going to be able to put out the power of a 302? im having trouble believing that. i know the stock heads arent all that good and to get the most performance out of the motor i need the aluminum heads but from what i have read and talked to others that the stock heads will be fine for a while and i will only lose bout 50-75 hp from stock heads vs the aluminum ones. im running this intake edelbrock super victor. also im running the trick flow springs in the heads. i know now that i am not going to waste my money and time on porting the heads. i do agree with that but i am still having trouble getting around the fact that i will be putting out the power of a 302.
BlackVert
15 Year Member
i disagree wholeheartedly.
stock for stock, a 351 makes alot more torque than a 302 all day.
of course, it won't realize the full potential of 351 cubic inches, which might be your point, but to say that it won't be any better than a 302 with the same parts is simply incorrect.
You can't run a Trick Flow 2 cam with stock heads. Not only will it run like crap, it will tear the valvetrane to pieces. I was assuming you were going to leave the stock cam in until you got better heads.
Kurt
Kurt
ok sooo i talked to a tech today about the head situation im running into. now ok bare with me..... i tell him i have stock heads and don't have the money right now for the trick flow heads and with me changing the springs in the heads and installing the stage 2 cam how much of a performance loss will i see in hp... he tells me 35hp difference between the stock heads and the trick flow heads. is that not messed up or what.
well that's obvious its a bigger engine of course it makes more TQ. Just like a 408 makes more TQ then a 351. What I'm saying is its not worth building a 351 unless the plans are to w/ out a doubt put 351 parts on it. Other then that you have a heavier engine that makes 302 power and makes better TQ but at that point whats it matter?
As far as what the Tech guy told you something seems to be left out or something was not explained right.
A standard 302 stock 5.0 will make about 200-210 HP at the wheels. After heads,cam and intake they make anywhere from 270-300 depending on the parts used.
My engine stock dynoed around 255 HP after H/C/I and real low compression Im putting down 344
Don't loose your focus of the complete or bigger picture here 
The big pic is the Windsor will offer more power over the 5.0
You say the project is gonna be done in steps as funds allow
Stuff like h/c/i are not needed to get the combo foundation built
Get the motor in there along with all the supporting stuff like ...
hood
dizzy
headers
etc
Get it running
then ...
You can bolt on your hot rod parts
Yes ... the 5.0 parts will keep the power down
but
It is only for a while or until you can go to the next step
I'd get the motor in there and make it driveable :Word:
Then I'd do a tear down to install the heads and cam
At that point ... you won't have to do a major amount of work
Just little stuff like intake, fuel stuff, and the like
You've got a good plan
Go For It
Grady
The big pic is the Windsor will offer more power over the 5.0
You say the project is gonna be done in steps as funds allow
Stuff like h/c/i are not needed to get the combo foundation built
Get the motor in there along with all the supporting stuff like ...
hood
dizzy
headers
etc
Get it running
then ...
You can bolt on your hot rod parts
Yes ... the 5.0 parts will keep the power down
but
It is only for a while or until you can go to the next step
I'd get the motor in there and make it driveable :Word:
Then I'd do a tear down to install the heads and cam
At that point ... you won't have to do a major amount of work
Just little stuff like intake, fuel stuff, and the like
You've got a good plan
Go For It
Grady
Don't loose your focus of the complete or bigger picture here
The big pic is the Windsor will offer more power over the 5.0
Not exactly. The Windsor will be able to handle more power. It will also make the power at a lower rpm. Bore size and head flow are virtually identical on a 302 and a windsor, which are the determining factors on power. The Windsor offers more streetable power due to the rev range for most applications.
Kurt
BlackVert
15 Year Member
Come On Man
Seems like ya always wanna split hairs
I don't read that the OP wants to build exotic stuff
I Mean ... Most folk who come here are about getting the most
power from the smallest amount of bucks they got to spend
Bolt on hot rod parts that are suitable to each motor
Most peeps are gonna go for the additional 50 cubes
Nothing fancy ... Just 1 rwhp for each cube with either choice
50 more is 50 more
Grady
But the thing is that a 351 swap is not a direct swap. It requires additional parts and what it comes down to is the cost factor VS what power will be gained with a 351 with 302 parts on it really worth it? First of all research on what it takes to do a 351 swap, figure out what the cost factor will be and decide if you want to go ahead with this. A 351 swap is not as simple as pulling out a 302 and dropping in a 351
BlackVert
15 Year Member
Suprdave, I'm not sure a TFS stage 2 cam will work with stock E7 heads. The lift might make for piston to valve clearance issues. Do you already have the 351?
The down side has already been pointed out ... that it will not realize the true potential of the motor with stock heads.
The up side is that you get 49 extra cubes and a much stronger block, so you have a much better starting point. And in the meantime, even with the stock heads, the difference in torque will be noticeable, especially on the lower end of the RPM range.
I have said more than a few times that if I were doing it again, I would do it this way ... getting the 351 in pretty much as it is with the required swap items (intake/distributor/oil pan/exhaust headers/...) and then after that is installed and back on the road, planning and saving for the upgrades. Doing it that way minimizes the down time and also helps spread out the costs. And you can drive it while you are saving up for the upgrades.
I don't understand why you keep going back to this. The OP has already said he is planning on upgrading the heads as funds allow.
The down side has already been pointed out ... that it will not realize the true potential of the motor with stock heads.
The up side is that you get 49 extra cubes and a much stronger block, so you have a much better starting point. And in the meantime, even with the stock heads, the difference in torque will be noticeable, especially on the lower end of the RPM range.
I have said more than a few times that if I were doing it again, I would do it this way ... getting the 351 in pretty much as it is with the required swap items (intake/distributor/oil pan/exhaust headers/...) and then after that is installed and back on the road, planning and saving for the upgrades. Doing it that way minimizes the down time and also helps spread out the costs. And you can drive it while you are saving up for the upgrades.
Yes ... The Windsor is not just a drop in swap
But ... I'd have to believe anyone thinking about this option would know it
I mean ... It has been documented on this site :Word:
and
All the other sites over and over
so
The info is easily found
Another thing to think about using the Windsor is .........
You can go beyond the 1 rwhp per ci with a less radical combo than
the smaller 5.0 block due to the larger platform
Or in other words ...
The bumpstick doesn't have to be as rad on the larger motor
Then again ... Don't deal with the swap stuff required by the 351
Go for the additional 50 cubes with a 5.0 stroked to 347
As always ... Its all about application
Grady
But ... I'd have to believe anyone thinking about this option would know it
I mean ... It has been documented on this site :Word:
and
All the other sites over and over
so
The info is easily found
Another thing to think about using the Windsor is .........
You can go beyond the 1 rwhp per ci with a less radical combo than
the smaller 5.0 block due to the larger platform
Or in other words ...
The bumpstick doesn't have to be as rad on the larger motor
Then again ... Don't deal with the swap stuff required by the 351
Go for the additional 50 cubes with a 5.0 stroked to 347
As always ... Its all about application
Grady
The reason I keep saying it is bc there is a difference between saying your going to do it and actually have it happen. Not that this is one but I've seen my fair share of pipe dream threads and never finished projects. A small shot of No2 would make up for the extra 50 cubes as compared to the time and money invested into a 351 swap that was never finished with the correct parts. Once again just saying
BlackVert
15 Year Member
I understand and agree ... talk is cheap. It takes perserverence to actually make it happen.
All I am saying is that doing it incrementally, with the ability to drive it in between, makes it much more doable. Doing mine the "right way" ended up taking over 2 years and costing over 10 grand. Had I done it the other way, I would have been able to drive it most of the 3 years, and the cost would have been spread out, making it much more bearable.
99FiveOh
15 Year Member
+1 on going ahead and getting the motor converted and installed. I see so many projects derailed by the expenses involved in what most call "doing it right". Especially in our economy, many folks can't afford to plop down 10 grand on a motor. Success is the greatest driving force in this hobby. A running, stockish 351w sitting in the engine bay of your Mustang is absolutely the definition of success, and it will stimulate further successes down the line.
I know from experience that if a project beats you up too badly, not only will it not get done, but it can have a severe impact on your love for this hobby as a whole. Also, while you're doing all these mini steps toward your ultimate goal, you'll learn tons along the way. So go for it!
I know from experience that if a project beats you up too badly, not only will it not get done, but it can have a severe impact on your love for this hobby as a whole. Also, while you're doing all these mini steps toward your ultimate goal, you'll learn tons along the way. So go for it!
