Ok I have been following the no start sticky from J Richker. I have traced my problem to no injector pulse. I have my fuel pressure is a steady 40psi at the schrader valve. Noid light has solid 12 volts no flash for pulse. Replaced fuel pump,fuel tank, and fuel filter. Checked TPS voltage: reference is .98 volts but the orange wire is showing 5.07 volts so no fuel injector pulse since it thinks it's flooded. Replaced the tps and still the same voltage. I can't figure out how or why it's above 3.6 volts. Any help is appreciated.
86 Gt Tps Reference Not Starting
- Thread starter Greg Roberts
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Orange should show 5V. That's your power to the sensor
Orange = 5V
Black = ground (no voltage)
Green = 0.5-1.1V with throttle closed. WOT will be triggered when this voltage on green hits around 3.6V
Moreso, you really don't need to test the TPS voltage. RUn the codes. If you do not have a code 23 (TPS reference voltage over 1.1volt) or 63 (TPS reference under 0.5v) then you are all set.
Orange = 5V
Black = ground (no voltage)
Green = 0.5-1.1V with throttle closed. WOT will be triggered when this voltage on green hits around 3.6V
Moreso, you really don't need to test the TPS voltage. RUn the codes. If you do not have a code 23 (TPS reference voltage over 1.1volt) or 63 (TPS reference under 0.5v) then you are all set.
If the PIP sensor in the distributor goes bad, you won't get an injector pulse and it may not set a code for a PIP sensor problem.
The PIP is a Hall Effect magnetic sensor that triggers the TFI and injectors. There is a shutter wheel alternately covers and uncovers a fixed magnet as it rotates. The change in the magnetic field triggers the sensor. They are often heat sensitive, increasing the failure rate as the temperature increases.
PIP Sensor functionality, testing and replacement:
The PIP is a Hall Effect magnetic sensor that triggers the TFI and injectors. There is a shutter wheel alternately covers and uncovers a fixed magnet as it rotates. The change in the magnetic field triggers the sensor. A failing PIP sensor will often set code 14 in the computer. They are often heat sensitive, increasing the failure rate as the temperature increases.
Some simple checks to do before replacing the PIP sensor or distributor:
You will need a Multimeter or DVM with good batteries: test or replace them before you get started.. You may also need some extra 16-18 gauge wire to extend the length of the meter’s test leads.
Visual check first: look for chaffed or damaged wiring and loose connector pins in the TFI harness connector.
Check the IDM wiring – dark green/yellow wire from the TFI module to pin 4 on the computer. There is a 22K Ohm resistor in the wiring between the TFI and the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 22,000 ohms +/- 10%.
Check the PIP wiring - dark blue from the TFI module to pin 56 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the SPOUT wiring – yellow/lt green from the TFI module to pin 36 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the black/orange wire from the TFI module to pin 16 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the red/green wire; it should have a steady 12-13 volts with the ignition switch on and the engine not running.
Check the red/blue wire; it should have a steady 12-13 volts with the ignition switch in Start and the engine not running. Watch out for the fan blades when you do this test, since the engine will be cranking.
If you do not find any chaffed or broken wires, high resistance connections or loose pins in the wiring harness, replace the PIP sensor or the distributor.
The PIP sensor is mounted in the bottom of the distributor under the shutter wheel. In stock Ford distributors, you have to press the gear off the distributor shaft to get access to it to replace it. Most guys just end up replacing the distributor with a reman unit for about $75 exchange
PIP problems & diagnostic info
Spark with the SPOUT out, but not with the SPOUT in suggests a PIP problem. The PIP signal level needs to be above 6.5 volts to trigger the computer, but only needs to be 5.75 volts to trigger the TFI module. Hence with a weak PIP signal, and the SPOUT out, you could get spark but no injector pulse. You will need an oscilloscope or graphing DVM to measure the output voltage since it is not a straight DC voltage.
See http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf and http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf for verification of this little detail from Wells, a manufacturer of TFI modules and ignition system products.
The PIP is a Hall Effect magnetic sensor that triggers the TFI and injectors. There is a shutter wheel alternately covers and uncovers a fixed magnet as it rotates. The change in the magnetic field triggers the sensor. They are often heat sensitive, increasing the failure rate as the temperature increases.
PIP Sensor functionality, testing and replacement:
The PIP is a Hall Effect magnetic sensor that triggers the TFI and injectors. There is a shutter wheel alternately covers and uncovers a fixed magnet as it rotates. The change in the magnetic field triggers the sensor. A failing PIP sensor will often set code 14 in the computer. They are often heat sensitive, increasing the failure rate as the temperature increases.
Some simple checks to do before replacing the PIP sensor or distributor:
You will need a Multimeter or DVM with good batteries: test or replace them before you get started.. You may also need some extra 16-18 gauge wire to extend the length of the meter’s test leads.
Visual check first: look for chaffed or damaged wiring and loose connector pins in the TFI harness connector.
Check the IDM wiring – dark green/yellow wire from the TFI module to pin 4 on the computer. There is a 22K Ohm resistor in the wiring between the TFI and the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 22,000 ohms +/- 10%.
Check the PIP wiring - dark blue from the TFI module to pin 56 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the SPOUT wiring – yellow/lt green from the TFI module to pin 36 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the black/orange wire from the TFI module to pin 16 on the computer. Use an ohmmeter to measure the wire resistance from the TFI to the computer. You should see 0.2-1.5 ohms.
Check the red/green wire; it should have a steady 12-13 volts with the ignition switch on and the engine not running.
Check the red/blue wire; it should have a steady 12-13 volts with the ignition switch in Start and the engine not running. Watch out for the fan blades when you do this test, since the engine will be cranking.
If you do not find any chaffed or broken wires, high resistance connections or loose pins in the wiring harness, replace the PIP sensor or the distributor.
The PIP sensor is mounted in the bottom of the distributor under the shutter wheel. In stock Ford distributors, you have to press the gear off the distributor shaft to get access to it to replace it. Most guys just end up replacing the distributor with a reman unit for about $75 exchange
PIP problems & diagnostic info
Spark with the SPOUT out, but not with the SPOUT in suggests a PIP problem. The PIP signal level needs to be above 6.5 volts to trigger the computer, but only needs to be 5.75 volts to trigger the TFI module. Hence with a weak PIP signal, and the SPOUT out, you could get spark but no injector pulse. You will need an oscilloscope or graphing DVM to measure the output voltage since it is not a straight DC voltage.
See http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf and http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf for verification of this little detail from Wells, a manufacturer of TFI modules and ignition system products.
Replaced dizzy with new ( not reman) dizzy too. It's installed same way it was. This vehicle has sat for 8 years. As stated replaced plugs wires dizzy and aforementioned fuel items. Noid light only lights faintly and no pulse while cranking. I am beating my head in read and reread all of the troubleshooting guide, followed down till good fuel pressure checked with a gauge from O Reilly's. So good fuel pressure good spark no fuel on plugs after cranking for a minute. Dry to touch no fuel smell and noid light shows red/orange with no flash.
Remove the SPOUT and try the Noid test again...
If that still fails and you have good spark, then there are computer or wiring problems. Are there any signs of rats chewing up the wires or rat mess on the wiring or near the computer?
If that still fails and you have good spark, then there are computer or wiring problems. Are there any signs of rats chewing up the wires or rat mess on the wiring or near the computer?
started with spout connector checked spark plug gaps and corrected it to 50 thousands. While pulling plugs and trying to start the car it started to "poof" and cough really trying to start but didn't catch for the first time smelled fuel on plugs and in the engine bay. So think I could be 180 degrees out?
Pull the #1 plug, actually pull all of them it will be easier to turn the engine
Crank the engine by hand, holding your thumb over the #1 spark plug hole and when you feel air blowing out see how close your pointer is to tdc, to get closer stick a screw driver in the spark plug hole and feel the piston moving up till it stops or you see the 0 on the crank dampner, your rotor should point to the intake, if it points towards the front of the engine it's out
Crank the engine by hand, holding your thumb over the #1 spark plug hole and when you feel air blowing out see how close your pointer is to tdc, to get closer stick a screw driver in the spark plug hole and feel the piston moving up till it stops or you see the 0 on the crank dampner, your rotor should point to the intake, if it points towards the front of the engine it's out
Ok Karthief: it is indeed timed correctly. Sucks finger in on exhaust stroke blows off on compression stroke. Button on dizzy pointed near #1 cylinder on dizzy and balancer shows 0 on it. It will "start" with starter fluid through TB but as soon as it's gone it dies. Checked salt and pepper shakers and vref on it is all over the map on the dvm. Seems like -15 to 16.5 mv and its crazy but what am I missing??? UGGGHHHH!!
You are going to have to go through the cranks but no start check list, look at the section that makes the injectors work.
You already verified you have fuel pressure, something is not activating the injectors. Don't overlook anything,
You already verified you have fuel pressure, something is not activating the injectors. Don't overlook anything,
Go back through the cranks but no start check list, your resolution is in there. Be meticulous and skip nothing.
- Mar 2, 2015
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Ummm...no motor sucks in on the exhaust stroke. It goes intake, compression, power, exhaust...
The fact that it starts with starting fuid is a good thing.
You can pull the number 1 plug and stick a straw in there while turning the motor over. Holding the straw you should feel the piston coming up. You can use the straw to feel when the piston is at top dead center. ( this is done on the compression stroke ) Then you can look at the cap to set the distributor to number 1 on cap. You say the timing is OK so I'll move on.
Usually its something simple that causes a car not to start.
The no start checklist has helped a lot of people. You just have to be patient and don't skip any steps.
The fact that it starts with starting fuid is a good thing.
You can pull the number 1 plug and stick a straw in there while turning the motor over. Holding the straw you should feel the piston coming up. You can use the straw to feel when the piston is at top dead center. ( this is done on the compression stroke ) Then you can look at the cap to set the distributor to number 1 on cap. You say the timing is OK so I'll move on.
Usually its something simple that causes a car not to start.
The no start checklist has helped a lot of people. You just have to be patient and don't skip any steps.
Check your grounds, one bolts from the back of the head on the drivers side to the firewall, another on the drivers side inner fender between the battery and the starter solenoid, that one should have two wires.
There is one behind the passenger kick panel by the computer. I'm thinking there is another one on the passenger side engine or inner fender but can't remember, this stuff gives me a head ache after a while and I have to walk away and come back fresh. Going back through what you've wrote and the results you've given, there may be a problem between the #1 black 10 pin connector or/and the #2 white one and the computer.
There is one behind the passenger kick panel by the computer. I'm thinking there is another one on the passenger side engine or inner fender but can't remember, this stuff gives me a head ache after a while and I have to walk away and come back fresh. Going back through what you've wrote and the results you've given, there may be a problem between the #1 black 10 pin connector or/and the #2 white one and the computer.
We have a running engine. I also have coolant all over my valve cover on the passenger side. I am hoping it is a hole in a hose somewhere but she cranks up and runs like it was new Thanks J Richker and Karthief! Grounds grounds grounds. Cleaned all and reinstalled computer and voila here she goes. Any guesses where the antifreeze is coming from on the passenger side?
That tube that runs from the front of the intake to the heater hose by the firewall, there is a tab that attaches to a stud/intake bolt that has a hole in it?
Just a wild guess.
Just a wild guess.
