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Progress Thread '93 Kenne Bell Notch

  • Thread starter Thread starter James V
  • Start date Start date Apr 6, 2019
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James V

5 Year Member
Feb 26, 2017
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Apr 25, 2019
#61
  • Apr 25, 2019
  • #61
https://newhaven.craigslist.org/pts/d/oxford-351-cleveland-b-and-crank/6871324605.html

What's your guys opinion on this block for me to build on?
 

CarMichael Angelo

my rearend will smell so minty fresh,
15 Year Member
Nov 29, 1999
10,641
8,909
234
Birmingham, al
Apr 26, 2019
#62
  • Apr 26, 2019
  • #62
James V said:
https://newhaven.craigslist.org/pts/d/oxford-351-cleveland-b-and-crank/6871324605.html

What's your guys opinion on this block for me to build on?
Click to expand...

There used to be a day believe it or not when a 351 Windsor was a dog, and a 351 Cleveland was king.
From the 1st time it was used in prostock in 1970, through the mid 80's, it was the king of the Ford small block.
But that was before somebody started making aftermarket heads for the Windsor. The day that World products first made a cast iron set of good heads for a Windsor based engine was the day that a 351 Cleveland was doomed to restoration only status.

A 351c has its own fair share of negative issues..as well as a few benefits as a build up, so I'll list the good and the bad.

Pro:
You don't see the engine everyday, and in a fox the thing looks freakin huge because of the heads. It's different.
The crank mains are smaller in diameter than a Windsor, potentially better for bearing life.
The stock 4bbl heads are very capable of flowing enough CFM to support relatively high hp numbers.

Con:
the 4 bbl heads are cast iron. Heavy as all three pigs in a basket, and have flow issues at low RPM. ( the exhaust port needs restrictor plates that serve as a fix for a poor floor design)
The engine has oiling issues that you have to fix with restrictors as well, or the top end of the engine gets too much oil, and the crank starves at high rpm.
You will not have very many choices for exhaust, and what you find will be expensive, and potentially huge for the street ( like 2" primary tube, 3.5" collector long tube only)
The intake choices suck, as this engine never saw the efi revolution, so you'll be forced to take a carbureted intake, and convert it.
Nothing that fits a Windsor, fits a Cleveland.
The aftermarket makes several different heads to choose from now, from a smaller exhaust port aluminum head ( edelbrock) but it's based on a street friendly port and valve size
( edelbrock performer maybe) ...to a really good race head from trick flow.
With a few other castings in between.
So a head isnt really that much of a problem anymore.
Similar to the above, There is a ford made cast iron head out there called a 2bbl head, but the chamber is open, and terrible for use in a boosted or power adder engine.
There is also a cast iron 2bbl head out there from ford Australia that has a closed chamber, but it is as rare as seeing a 5.0 in a Camaro, and again, both cast iron head options are heavy, and old as dirt.
You'll have to source a double sump pan
As well.

There is a reason that dudes bare block is sitting, buried in his garage..But.....where there's a will, a buttload of money, and a whole bunch of know-how, there's a way.

I know a guy that has a 351 Cleveland style head on a six cylinder that he put in a Fairmont. Talk about stupid..
 
Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
Reactions: James V

James V

5 Year Member
Feb 26, 2017
409
144
63
Connecticut
Apr 26, 2019
#63
  • Apr 26, 2019
  • #63
CarMichael Angelo said:
There used to be a day believe it or not when a 351 Windsor was a dog, and a 351 Cleveland was king.
From the 1st time it was used in prostock in 1970, through the mid 80's, it was the king of the Ford small block.
But that was before somebody started making aftermarket heads for the Windsor. The day that World products first made a cast iron set of good heads for a Windsor based engine was the day that a 351 Cleveland was doomed to restoration only status.

A 351c has its own fair share of negative issues..as well as a few benefits as a build up, so I'll list the good and the bad.

Pro:
You don't see the engine everyday, and in a fox the thing looks freakin huge because of the heads. It's different.
The crank mains are smaller in diameter than a Windsor, potentially better for bearing life.
The stock 4bbl heads are very capable of flowing enough CFM to support relatively high hp numbers.

Con:
the 4 bbl heads are cast iron. Heavy as all three pigs in a basket, and have flow issues at low RPM. ( the exhaust port needs restrictor plates that serve as a fix for a poor floor design)
The engine has oiling issues that you have to fix with restrictors as well, or the top end of the engine gets too much oil, and the crank starves at high rpm.
You will not have very many choices for exhaust, and what you find will be expensive, and potentially huge for the street ( like 2" primary tube, 3.5" collector long tube only)
The intake choices suck, as this engine never saw the efi revolution, so you'll be forced to take a carbureted intake, and convert it.
Nothing that fits a Windsor, fits a Cleveland.
The aftermarket makes several different heads to choose from now, from a smaller exhaust port aluminum head ( edelbrock) but it's based on a street friendly port and valve size
( edelbrock performer maybe) ...to a really good race head from trick flow.
With a few other castings in between.
So a head isnt really that much of a problem anymore.
Similar to the above, There is a ford made cast iron head out there called a 2bbl head, but the chamber is open, and terrible for use in a boosted or power adder engine.
There is also a cast iron 2bbl head out there from ford Australia that has a closed chamber, but it is as rare as seeing a 5.0 in a Camaro, and again, both cast iron head options are heavy, and old as dirt.
You'll have to source a double sump pan
As well.

There is a reason that dudes bare block is sitting, buried in his garage..But.....where there's a will, a buttload of money, and a whole bunch of know-how, there's a way.

I know a guy that has a 351 Cleveland style head on a six cylinder that he put in a Fairmont. Talk about stupid..
Click to expand...

Wow thanks for the in depth breakdown. That's a whole lot of cons. I'll pass on this than, I just want a fresh block to start building on eventually.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
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polk county florida
Apr 26, 2019
#64
  • Apr 26, 2019
  • #64
Find a roller block 351.
 
Reactions: James V

James V

5 Year Member
Feb 26, 2017
409
144
63
Connecticut
Apr 27, 2019
#65
  • Apr 27, 2019
  • #65
A pic from today. Took it out for a drive, not too far. The mechanical fan has been keeping the operating temp so low, I'm impressed. I'm thinking it should hold up well in the summer heat. Can't wait to paint it in a couple months.
 
Reactions: stanglx2002, General karthief, Rdub6 and 1 other person

James V

5 Year Member
Feb 26, 2017
409
144
63
Connecticut
Apr 29, 2019
#66
  • Apr 29, 2019
  • #66
I may not go with red when I repaint this summer. I'm still going back and forth on what color I actually want. I like calypso green but I also think I dark metallic gray would like nice, still up in the air.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
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Apr 29, 2019
#67
  • Apr 29, 2019
  • #67
Its red, keep it the same.
 
Reactions: Boostedpimp

James V

5 Year Member
Feb 26, 2017
409
144
63
Connecticut
Apr 29, 2019
#68
  • Apr 29, 2019
  • #68
General karthief said:
Its red, keep it the same.
Click to expand...

Only 50% of it is red at this point lol, but that was my original thinking to keep it red mainly because I think redoing the door jams would be difficult.
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
27,916
10,566
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polk county florida
Apr 29, 2019
#69
  • Apr 29, 2019
  • #69
I'm just a red fan.
I also like keeping the color the car came with unless it is absolutely hideous
like green 'cept booger green of course
 
Reactions: James V

BlakeusMaximus

Still got to try a little lube on my speedo head
5 Year Member
Jul 12, 2017
2,474
1,348
173
Apr 29, 2019
#70
  • Apr 29, 2019
  • #70
James V said:
Only 50% of it is red at this point lol, but that was my original thinking to keep it red mainly because I think redoing the door jams would be difficult.
Click to expand...

You would have to pull all the body panels off. Fenders, doors, hatch bumpers to do the jambs. Then, what about your engine bay? Pulling the engine? Red is a cool color, I would keep it red.
 
Last edited: Apr 29, 2019

Rdub6

So while I wait to figure out my rear end issues
5 Year Member
Dec 29, 2017
3,954
2,936
153
Long Island, NY
Apr 29, 2019
#71
  • Apr 29, 2019
  • #71
I was never crazy about red, but that’s what my car was when I bought it, so it’s growing on me more and more (especially with what I have in my head as my final version), but I do love a real clean, simple metallic grey Foxbody. It’d be a tough choice for me, but as Blake says, that engine bay may have your answer in it!
 
Reactions: James V

James V

5 Year Member
Feb 26, 2017
409
144
63
Connecticut
Apr 30, 2019
#72
  • Apr 30, 2019
  • #72
BlakeusMaximus said:
You would have to pull all the body panels off. Fenders, doors, hatch bumpers to do the jambs. Then, what about your engine bay? Pulling the engine? Red is a cool color, I would keep it red.
Click to expand...

The engine bay was painted black before I had it. I may end up keeping it red to avoid having to take everything apart like you're saying.
 

James V

5 Year Member
Feb 26, 2017
409
144
63
Connecticut
May 4, 2019
#73
  • May 4, 2019
  • #73
Was tired of my roof sounding like a tin can. Bought some Noico on Amazon and it was worth it.

 
Reactions: 90sickfox, Boostedpimp and Rdub6

James V

5 Year Member
Feb 26, 2017
409
144
63
Connecticut
May 7, 2019
#74
  • May 7, 2019
  • #74
Anyone have any insite on the AC system. Mine doesnt work at the moment and I'm debating removing it. I originally wanted to fix it but never realized how much money I would spend trying to fix the AC. Someone told me they dont make the gas for the stock system anymore anyway, is that true?
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
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polk county florida
May 7, 2019
#75
  • May 7, 2019
  • #75
Retro fit 134a
you may still be able to buy R12 on ebay.
 
Reactions: James V

Rdub6

So while I wait to figure out my rear end issues
5 Year Member
Dec 29, 2017
3,954
2,936
153
Long Island, NY
May 7, 2019
#76
  • May 7, 2019
  • #76
I ripped mine out. I figured if i ever retrofit it, I’m halfway there. Until then, I’ll enjoy a less cluttered engine bay.
 
Reactions: James V

James V

5 Year Member
Feb 26, 2017
409
144
63
Connecticut
May 8, 2019
#77
  • May 8, 2019
  • #77
General karthief said:
Retro fit 134a
you may still be able to buy R12 on ebay.
Click to expand...

How can I retrofit it? Does that mean just put 134a in the system?
 

General karthief

wonder how much it would cost to ship you a pair
20+ Year Stangneter
Aug 25, 2016
27,916
10,566
203
polk county florida
May 8, 2019
#78
  • May 8, 2019
  • #78
There is a kit you buy, has fittings and oil, I have all new stuff, compressor, evap and condenser, and that hose with the big can on it,dryer (?) I not sure how one would work converting to 134a and using old parts. @jrichker or maybe @FastDriver could better answer that. There may even be info in the technical/how to thread, I didn't look.
 
Reactions: James V

BlakeusMaximus

Still got to try a little lube on my speedo head
5 Year Member
Jul 12, 2017
2,474
1,348
173
May 8, 2019
#79
  • May 8, 2019
  • #79
James V said:
Was tired of my roof sounding like a tin can. Bought some Noico on Amazon and it was worth it.

Click to expand...

How much was that stuff? I priced some dynomat and right now its a little to rich for my blood. I need some of that for my roof before I reinstall my headliner.
 
K

kendawg73

Well-Known Member
Feb 5, 2014
474
102
64
May 8, 2019
#80
  • May 8, 2019
  • #80
General karthief said:
There is a kit you buy, has fittings and oil, I have all new stuff, compressor, evap and condenser, and that hose with the big can on it,dryer (?) I not sure how one would work converting to 134a and using old parts. @jrichker or maybe @FastDriver could better answer that. There may even be info in the technical/how to thread, I didn't look.
Click to expand...

GK, this the kinda kit your talking about? -https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/autocraft-r-12-to-r-134a-retrofit-parts-kit-ac995-va-lh11/12011072-p?c3ch=PLA&c3nid=12011072-P&adtype=pla_with_promotion&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3qHKqaCM4gIVgkwNCh3Iug8PEAQYASABEgJhlPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

I bought all new stock a/c stuff to put back it the car... so would this be all that's needed to used the 134A?
 
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