Anyone running catalytic converter on a turbo setup?

Thanks for the good info @a91what my total tuning experience is one road-tuned '95 turbo a few years ago and one best-guess blow-through carb setup on another car. The last thing I wanted to be was Eric-the-Car-Guy of YouTube fame who's melted down his built Chevy turbo 2 or 3 times now at relatively low boost, from what I recall he was running about 12.5:1 and who-knows-what-timing. 11.5 is still smelly-rich so I still suggest a cat, and the rich mixture hasn't caused any issue with the cat either (though I'm sure it borrows some power, just not so much that I've ever noticed).
 
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I ordered a 3" flowmaster catalytic converter and v band clamps. Should be here in a few days. Will let you all know how it goes when it is welded up and installed.
There's a picture I've posted early in this thread of what the inside of your new flowmaster cat will look like in a relatively short time, followed by some comments by others as to how a spun cat is basically junk.
 
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There's a picture I've posted early in this thread of what the inside of your new flowmaster cat will look like in a relatively short time, followed by some comments by others as to how a spun cat is basically junk.
FYI, The “spun” refers to the case, not the catalyst matrix. After the matrix is fubar, it should pass a visual inspection for long time.
 
We have no visual inspections here. No smog inspections of any kind. I am trying to cut down the exhaust stink. Even if it becomes fubar as you say Mike, it won't technically hurt anything except the cat itself. For the price I am willing to give it a try. This isn't a 1000 hp car, this is a street car that occasionally will see 6 to 8 lbs of boost.
 
We have no visual inspections here. No smog inspections of any kind. I am trying to cut down the exhaust stink. Even if it becomes fubar as you say Mike, it won't technically hurt anything except the cat itself. For the price I am willing to give it a try. This isn't a 1000 hp car, this is a street car that occasionally will see 6 to 8 lbs of boost.
My point is, its pointless to install it. The center matrix completely burns out and becomes a hollow tube.
 
Your point is it is pointless because it didn't work for you, on a different car, with a completely different engine, completely different exhaust setup, different tune, different boost levels, etc. etc. I have less into this than I spent at Olive Garden last night......and the bread was cold..... The location I am putting this cat, along with the fact that it will be installed with v-band clamps makes it REALLY easy to remove so I am going to try. If it eats the cat like you say it will, I will gladly show the results of that.
 
Cats and AFR Cliffs Notes version. (I only talk in lambda because AFR moves around quite a bit depending on the ethanol blend.)

Where cats work: Catalysts only work at lambda 1 (stoich) or a VERY narrow band around lambda1. In fact, you need to toggle back and forth between rich and lean to keep the cat reacting properly, alternating between feeding raw O2 (lean) and extra HC (rich) in the correct amounts. The toggle is usually in the range of about less than 1% or 2% max depending on the catalyst. This is known as forced modulation, and the magnitude of the kick and hold time usually is dialed in to keep the cat in it's "happy" zone for best conversion efficiency. This can be seen in the catalyst brick temperature, where an exothermic reaction of the exhaust constituents takes place and the cat temp is higher than the in-flowing exhaust. In summary, if you don't idle and cruise at lambda 1, the cat isn't doing anything.

Enrichment is used for several reasons:

1) There is a charge cooling effect from going slightly rich at high loads due to the heat of vaporization from the fuel. This is usually in the 0.95 to 0.90 lambda range. The result is more dense air charge trapped in the cylinder.

2) A richer mixture can shift your knock limit by cooling the air charge (as described above) or slowing down the rate combustion and allow you to run more spark advance. This benefit can be realized from 0.95 lambda down to about 0.80 lambda, depending on the engine. Once you go south of 0.80 lambda, the combustion usually slows down to a point where you can't recover the torque through the knock limit shift spark advance.

3) A rich mixture cools the exhaust and the catalyst. Enrichment is used in production (by law) to protect the components of the exhaust system which have upper temperature limits; exhaust valves, turbine, or catalyst. Usually the enrichment is dictated by the first component to reach it's max threshold, and this can vary depending on the load / speed operating zone. Typical example values for sustained operation: Exhaust valves 860°C-920°C, turbine inlet or 950°C-980°C, catalyst 950°C with brief excursions up to 1000°C. In this rich case, the additional mass flow from the added fueling when running between 0.9 lambda and 0.7 lambda cools the exhaust components as compared to running at stoich / lambda 1.00. Since there is no un-burned O2 in the exhaust, the catalyst can not react with the extra HC in the rich mixture (more on that later).

4) Excessive enrichment: Pushing the lambda down too far can result in rich misfire as a91what stated. Once you go less than 0.7 lambda or 0.62 lambda, the burn rate slows down so much that complete combustion becomes unstable or the mixture is just too far off to ignite. If you have to run these very low lambda values to hold temperatures or avoid knocking, you're either running too much boost, too much compression ratio, or really bad cam timing.

What ruins catalysts:
1) Over-temping them by not running enough enrichment at sustained high load operation. Running rich does not ruin cats, running too rich (misfire) or not rich enough (at high load) does.
2) Misfire, where incomplete combustion in the cylinder pumps un-burned air (02) and un-burned fuel (HC) into the catalyst where the raw constituents react / burn in mass. When this happens at mid to high loads, the cat temperature can spike up to over 1300°C and melt down the substrate in seconds. (It's an OBDII legal requirement for the EMS to diagnose misfire and shut off fueling to the misfiring cylinder if it becomes bad enough to damage a catalyst, and flash the MIL as a warning to the driver. This is only available as a requirement on cars built from 1996 forward.)
And finally,
3) An exhaust leak can result in a similar scenario as #2. Exhaust flow is not steady flow. There is a high pressure pulse from each cylinder's exhaust stroke followed by a low pressure wave. When you have exhaust leaks, this low pressure wave can draw fresh air into the exhaust system. The raw O2 that's drawn in can react with the un-burned HC in the catalyst, increasing the catalyst temperature, and generate the same end result as misfire. It takes a pretty good size leak for this to happen, but even small leaks can start to render the catalyst ineffective in terms of conversion efficiency because the lambda value of the exhaust at the catalyst is no longer ideal (1.00). This is usually an issue for exhaust leaks upstream of the cat, but someone leaving the air injection system open after removing a smog pump can cause the same problem.

In terms of calibrating the fueling for a project car, you have to play it safe unless you plan to instrument your car with thermocouples and can get the max temperature specifications from the suppliers of these components (not likely). I would be less worried about a primarily street driven car or drag car than I would about one that's used for road racing, since road racing cars can operate at high loads for sustained periods of time. Short blasts aren't going to tulip your exhaust valves or melt down a cat if you're fueling is a few percent leaner than the ideal lambda for an NA application. The same goes for melting down your turbine impeller on a turbo car, but there is much less room for error with turbos due to the significantly higher mass flows involved. The general rules of thumb have already been stated and they are pretty good starting points. The best you can do is put a logical fueling table together based on your build and look for the warning signs while monitoring the lambda values at high loads (e.g. never go > lambda 1.00 or even 0.95 at WOT, glowing catalyst or headers after short WOT blasts, bad / burning smell after a WOT run from the exhaust, color of the spark plugs follwing repeated WOT runs, excessive knock at WOT with reasonable spark advance tables...).

I hope this helps.
 
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The only fox i've owned with a turbo kit did not have a cat but I can tell you on a GMC Typhoon I owned. We ran it on the dyno and I gained 32 rwhp by opening the exhaust cutout by passing the cat in that system.
 
Actually plenty of options out there for instrumentation when it comes to get temps. The most common uses relatively cheap type k thermocouples. Very useful to have but not absolutely necessary.
I agree, it's not that difficult to add those temperature measurements. It only takes the proper instrumentation, the fabrication work to add in the fittings. and a means to log it. It's just rare to see someone go to these lengths on a project car, especially with respect to placing a TC 1" from the face of the front catalyst brick. I think it's even more rare to find hard specifications for temperature limits on aftermarket parts. This type of instrumentation also comes with some risk; every new sensor in the exhaust is a potential exhaust leak, and pre-turbo thermocouples have a tendency to fail and take out the turbine in the process. When I've used them at the track with street / strip / road race cars for tuning purposes, we always take them out and cap the fittings when we're done.
 
I agree, it's not that difficult to add those temperature measurements. It only takes the proper instrumentation, the fabrication work to add in the fittings. and a means to log it. It's just rare to see someone go to these lengths on a project car, especially with respect to placing a TC 1" from the face of the front catalyst brick. I think it's even more rare to find hard specifications for temperature limits on aftermarket parts. This type of instrumentation also comes with some risk; every new sensor in the exhaust is a potential exhaust leak, and pre-turbo thermocouples have a tendency to fail and take out the turbine in the process. When I've used them at the track with street / strip / road race cars for tuning purposes, we always take them out and cap the fittings when we're done.
Agreed, typically we place one in each of the exhaust runners 1-1.5" from the cylinder head, they are used in the dyno/ tuning process then removed. We leave the caps and wiring in place so they can be installed at any time.

A Thermocouple can be purchased for anywhere between 25-45 depending on the brand/type. and some very affordable options out there as far as canbus based controllers for datalogging purposes.
You could get into an 8 cylinder EGT setup for around 600 if you find good deals.
 
I know this is old, but just want to give a follow up. I put the 3 inch cat on in May. I had the exhaust apart today (partially) when I had to take the down pipe off and I was able to get my inspection camera in the exhaust. The internals of the catalytic converter look perfect. I still have no exhaust smell (which tells me it is working as it should) and I have put about 600+ miles on it. Some of those miles were pretty hard too. I consider this a success.
 
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I know this is old, but just want to give a follow up. I put the 3 inch cat on in May. I had the exhaust apart today (partially) when I had to take the down pipe off and I was able to get my inspection camera in the exhaust. The internals of the catalytic converter look perfect. I still have no exhaust smell (which tells me it is working as it should) and I have put about 600+ miles on it. Some of those miles were pretty hard too. I consider this a success.
What type of converter did you purchase? I know you said Flowmaster above, but I see two different kinds on Summit (metallic substrate and ceramic honeycomb).
 
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Flowmaster 2000130 Catalytic Converter Univ 200 Srs. Metal H.F. 3.00"
 
I know this is old, but just want to give a follow up. I put the 3 inch cat on in May. I had the exhaust apart today (partially) when I had to take the down pipe off and I was able to get my inspection camera in the exhaust. The internals of the catalytic converter look perfect. I still have no exhaust smell (which tells me it is working as it should) and I have put about 600+ miles on it. Some of those miles were pretty hard too. I consider this a success.

I was waiting for an update like this. I really want a catalytic converter on my on3 system. What brand v bands did you buy and how was the fitment. I have a guy that welds stainless just have heard horror stories about different thicknesses between v band and clamp manufacturers.