I have looked at this many times. The easiest way I have come up with is to buy a fox body doner. There is a pinch weld along the top 4th of the firewall. Cut just below that seam all the way across to the door jambs. From there cut straight down and all the way under the car back past the end of the subframe. Doing this in this manor will allow you to easily use the suspension, pedals, seats, and even the dash. Dont get me wrong, this isnt for the faint at heart! I am a fabricator by trade and thus is a big job. But it can be done.and it can be done to look factory installed.
Anyone with SN95 font suspension? 68?
- Thread starter Booksix
- Start date
the front frame rails on the mustang are only thin gauge sheetmetal, they get their strength from the shock towers which triangulates to the firewall. mustang II suspensions are designed to for much stronger frame rails even the mustang II had stronger sub frames than the early mustang. also the early mustang didn't have the load of the suspension on the frame rails but rather on the shock towers which are made of a much heavier guage metal than the frame rails and they also actually depend on the engine for some of their strength as well. i do not like the idea of welding a mustang II front suspension to the early mustang frame rails without some sort of tubular structure also welded to the frame rails and tied into the firewall. if you're going to do a mustang II front end, that's the only way to do it right IMO.
1320stang
Founding Member
Agreed. Another thing Anthony told me was that the place he found that needed clearance the most was the area right above the frame rails. In looking at MII, the upper control arm hits right there. And again, I give you, what company is most famous for their MII front suspensions, are notoriuos for over engineering things and has probably been selling them longer than anyone else, and yet they don't make a MII front end for the early mustangs either. They also make a strut front end, figure out who it is? (Hint, think street rods.)
1320stang
Founding Member
Also, you could go back to stock fairly easy if your careful. I've tried the stock K-member on my '65 and it won't work without a lot of fabrication. If you put a late model clip on as stated above....... 
Well, I liked the idea cause of all the aftermarket parts and the AJE kills that somewhat. Also I liked the idea of grabbing a wrecked 96+ gt and using everything (in a "little brother to the sn65" manor) - front suspension, full braking system, steering, engine, trans, rear-end, dash, console, completer a/c system (late model, lots of parts available for this too!), ALL wiring, ABS, airbags, cruise, factory alarm, stereo - mmm, mach 460 upgrade? - fuel system, seats...).
Somewhat difficult even after you're past grafting the front suspensionbut WAY cheaper than buying all these systems seperate (with the right connections to a crashed car) for all these great upgrades plus a modern car...
oh yeah, and it paves the way for an 03 cobra motor... <drools>
Somewhat difficult even after you're past grafting the front suspensionbut WAY cheaper than buying all these systems seperate (with the right connections to a crashed car) for all these great upgrades plus a modern car...
oh yeah, and it paves the way for an 03 cobra motor... <drools>
1320stang
Founding Member
....then SN65 it baby!!!
If it was cheap and easy, everyone would have done it already. I had the idea of the AJE front end a few years back, even posted it here. My idea was just a tubular K member that would bolt in and use all the factory Fox or SN-95 parts as aftermarket pieces of those are readily available if someone wants something a bit better. I've now learned that had I done that, I would have not been able to use all those parts and would have ended up with the AJE front suspension and thought it would have been the LJH front suspension.
Funny thing is, everyone bitches about not enough aftermarket support for these cars then everyone hates what comes out. AJE, FatMan, Flaming River, Degins stuff, and about 3 others I can't think of the names of right now. The biggest gripe about most is, they're too expensive. Seems like everyone wants huge brakes and double adjustable/airbag/nascar type/enter whatever trips your trigger here suspension for $300. Centrifugal blowers are well over $1000 (usually close to $2000 and you usually have to have other things like bigger fuel pumps, etc.) and people are snapping them up because they make more power, but if you can't get the power to the ground, then what? But to spend $1000 on a suspension seems sacralige. In just about every car that is well built and works well that I have seen, they have at least what is spent on the engine and tranny in the suspension and brakes and sometimes more. Can you do stuff on a budget? Yes. Will it perform like the stuff that thousands is spent on? Likely not. Typically only those with mad fab skills can pull it off and most people don't have that or the equipment. If you figure all that time fabbing and searching for parts and put a dollar to it, your getting close to what's already out there.
If it was cheap and easy, everyone would have done it already. I had the idea of the AJE front end a few years back, even posted it here. My idea was just a tubular K member that would bolt in and use all the factory Fox or SN-95 parts as aftermarket pieces of those are readily available if someone wants something a bit better. I've now learned that had I done that, I would have not been able to use all those parts and would have ended up with the AJE front suspension and thought it would have been the LJH front suspension.
Funny thing is, everyone bitches about not enough aftermarket support for these cars then everyone hates what comes out. AJE, FatMan, Flaming River, Degins stuff, and about 3 others I can't think of the names of right now. The biggest gripe about most is, they're too expensive. Seems like everyone wants huge brakes and double adjustable/airbag/nascar type/enter whatever trips your trigger here suspension for $300. Centrifugal blowers are well over $1000 (usually close to $2000 and you usually have to have other things like bigger fuel pumps, etc.) and people are snapping them up because they make more power, but if you can't get the power to the ground, then what? But to spend $1000 on a suspension seems sacralige. In just about every car that is well built and works well that I have seen, they have at least what is spent on the engine and tranny in the suspension and brakes and sometimes more. Can you do stuff on a budget? Yes. Will it perform like the stuff that thousands is spent on? Likely not. Typically only those with mad fab skills can pull it off and most people don't have that or the equipment. If you figure all that time fabbing and searching for parts and put a dollar to it, your getting close to what's already out there.
Even the stock st stressed the rails, the st would move toward each other at the top. And again the st are still only welded to very light guage aprons and an even lighter firewall. The stock rails are the same guage as the st and in my .02 stock rails still held the majority of the weight.The MII has a much stronger crossmember compaird to the non existant stock one that was simply bolted in.
1320stang
Founding Member
The stronger MII crossmember isn't holding the car from bowing at the firewall.
Once the shock towers are removed, you can bolt a monte carlo bar in, but you have no place for the export brace to attach to. Okay, so you attach them to the monte carlo bar, the flat piece of sheet metal you've bolted or welded in is supposed to transfer the load to the upper bracing?
The shock tower takes the whole load of the front framerail and transfers it to the firewall thru the short rear panel. Now, you can break a new, full length pencil in half pretty easily with your bare hands, right? Sharpen it down to about 2" long and try it, can't do it? me neither. The tower distributes the whole load thru the whole panel, the replacement only transfers it thru about half the panel, draw a line fron the crossmember to the top corner of the panel at the firewall, that's triangulation. With the MII front suspension, the front end wants to fold up at the firewall even worse than the stock stuff does. On race Mustangs, you'll notice that the front braces come thru the forewall from the cage, tie into the shock tower than go down to the front of the frame rail. If the Mustang frame tied into the unibody with longer frame stubs like the Camaro then it might be okay, and remember, the Camaro front subframe isn't made up of layers of sheetmetal.
There is no way anyone can convince me that the cutting out of the shock towers and installing a MII front suspension is stronger than the factory shock towers with the factory bracing, just not gonna happen. Is the factory front end the end all be all? Nope.
No, the sn65 is a completely different idea/setup. And I wasn't griping about the options from fatman or who ever. I think they are fine for what they are (cause I know they have a LOT of r&t into them) and the prices are fine. I'm just saying that if it can be done (with self-labor) it's a "cheap" solution (based on what you get a donor car for). That being said:
What my dad saw at World Ford Challenge WAS a complete car with sn95 frame rails and all the suspension in it, not the AJE setup. I will try to get pics...
What my dad saw at World Ford Challenge WAS a complete car with sn95 frame rails and all the suspension in it, not the AJE setup. I will try to get pics...
1320stang
Founding Member
Book, I'm not coming down on you in particular, it's the whole mindset of most people.
The SN65 was all self labor. A sheet metal brake and shear and a welder were most of what they had. But they had a frame jig, you'd need the same thing putting a SN95 clip in as well.
Anything can be done, all it takes is time, money and some imagination. If you have a shell that the whole bottom end is toast, then it's a bit more viable. My car is pretty rust free. I like the RRS stuff, but it's about twice as what I could get the AJE done. I don't really care much for anything else, Global West is neat as well as Total Control, but I really want a R&P and the AJE setup looks like it was meant to be there IMO.
The SN65 was all self labor. A sheet metal brake and shear and a welder were most of what they had. But they had a frame jig, you'd need the same thing putting a SN95 clip in as well.
Anything can be done, all it takes is time, money and some imagination. If you have a shell that the whole bottom end is toast, then it's a bit more viable. My car is pretty rust free. I like the RRS stuff, but it's about twice as what I could get the AJE done. I don't really care much for anything else, Global West is neat as well as Total Control, but I really want a R&P and the AJE setup looks like it was meant to be there IMO.
1320stang
Founding Member
Ahh, the old MIB car. M&F was doing a piece on it when I still subscribed and then they sorta dropped it. $120k, there you go, that's cheap. LOL!!
ok, well i f you want to weld some fairly thick metal to some really thin sheetmetal frame rails and take away all of the structural support from those really thin sheetmetal frame rail and trust it to hold your engine and take the stresses of driving around and hitting potholes and stuff that's fine....but i DAMN SURE ain't gonna do it.
btw, have you ever ridden in an early mustang with a mustang II suspension? i have, and i can tell you there is more cowl shake when you hit a pothole in the road than a fox body convertible. know why? because there is no structural support!!!!!!!!
i agree. unless you properly support the lower frame rail, you will have more problems with the M ll suspension. again understand that the vast majority of the suspension loads are designed to be taken by the shock towers, and transferred to the firewall.
Like I said just .02!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You guys are talking like the aprons are gone and there is no support there. Show me a chassis twist vids like the one of the Mopar that was here the other day. One with stock and one with MII. Or a few pics of a car bent at the firewall that was driven by a sane person and not hit by a train.
Telling everyone "dont do it cause I dont like it" does not make it not right.
BYE!!! Done with this!!
Telling everyone "dont do it cause I dont like it" does not make it not right.
BYE!!! Done with this!!
1320stang
Founding Member
Sorry, I refuse to be a candidate for the "Darwin Awards", but feel free if you'd like to.
They said the Titanic was unsinkable too. (see sig)
As I said before, Fatman has probably sold and built more MII kits than Ford built MII's and they don't make a kit for it. I'm guessing there is a reason. You act like the MII swap is the best thing in the world and there is nothing better. Have you driven a MII car for a while? How many miles? Any additional bracing if you have? I didn't need to drive a Yugo to know it was a POS, if it was so great, they'd still be selling them.
They said the Titanic was unsinkable too. (see sig)
As I said before, Fatman has probably sold and built more MII kits than Ford built MII's and they don't make a kit for it. I'm guessing there is a reason. You act like the MII swap is the best thing in the world and there is nothing better. Have you driven a MII car for a while? How many miles? Any additional bracing if you have? I didn't need to drive a Yugo to know it was a POS, if it was so great, they'd still be selling them.
Hey Who The F&%* do you think you are calling me a candidate for the "Darwin Awards"!! I did not say it is the end all be all!! I just think its better than the stock stuff. Also Heidts has built and sold these kits for it for a long time to but no body has shown me or anyone here any more proof than just opinion!!!!!! No I have not driven a MII car but I have built/driven one with many mods to the susepension (Shelby drop,springs,roller perches,bars ect) and if that is the best it gets then there is NO hope for these cars!!!!!!!!! BTW I have kept my posts about the parts and not about you or anyone here personally SO KEEP YOUR OPINIONS ABOUT ME TO YOURSELF..................
