Are the 4.6's and 5.4's big blocks or small blocks?

Slithering_Joe · Dec 9, 2003

GTGunner said:
Modular motors are physically 'wider' due to the 90 degree angle formed by the right and left sides of the block in relation to the crankshaft. In other words, the 'V' of the V8 on a modular motor is a 90 degree angle, whereas the angle of the 'V' on the older Ford small blocks (260, 289, 302 and 351W) is more along the lines of a 60-70 degree angle. Therefore, even though the displacement on the 4.6 is smaller, the 90 degree angle makes it wider than the older Ford small blocks that sported larger displacements. Also, stock DOHC and SOHC heads are wider than the stock heads that came on old Ford small blocks.
Regards,
GTGunner

The mod motors are wide because the height of the heads are huge since the cams sit on top.

The V8's you speak of above from Ford are ALL 90 degrees. In fact, I can't think of any V8 (Ford, GM, Chrysler...) that isn't 90 deg. Not sure about the small V8s like the SHO and the LS for example.

The term "big block" and "smal block" are old school terms and really don't apply to the modular motors.

demonspeed · Dec 9, 2003

lwkauble said:
Actually, it goes like this:

Small block Fords are:

221 CI, 260 CI, 289 CI (Reg and high po w/mechanical lifters), 302 (5.0L), Boss 302, 351W (5.8L), Ford Classifiies the 351C as a small block with big block attitude is the first of the 335 series family (same heads as boss 302), 351M and 400M (a modified cleveland block with a taller deck height .500), the gas efficient (yeah right) 255CI introduced in 78-79.

So what do they call the 351M?

SilverSteed · Dec 9, 2003

1badII said:
How come the 427 Cammer isn't considered a mod motor?

Its not a mod motor, because mod motor is the name ford gave to the newer ones because alot of the parts are interchangeable/or not much different so they can use some of the same dies and such during production to save money.

Andy

351CJ · Dec 9, 2003

GTGunner said:
Modular motors are physically 'wider' due to the 90 degree angle formed by the right and left sides of the block in relation to the crankshaft. In other words, the 'V' of the V8 on a modular motor is a 90 degree angle, whereas the angle of the 'V' on the older Ford small blocks (260, 289, 302 and 351W) is more along the lines of a 60-70 degree angle. Therefore, even though the displacement on the 4.6 is smaller, the 90 degree angle makes it wider than the older Ford small blocks that sported larger displacements. Also, stock DOHC and SOHC heads are wider than the stock heads that came on old Ford small blocks.
Regards,
GTGunner

This is not correct

All Ford V8's, are 90 degree V engines.

8 cyl engines have to be 90 or 180 degrees in order to get an even firing order without resorting to split rod journals on the crankshaft.

6 cyl V engines such as the Duratec 2.5 & 3.0 and the Vulcan 3.0 are 60 degree engines.

351CJ · Dec 9, 2003

demonspeed said:
So what do they call the 351M?

The 351M is bastard engine.

At the end of 1974 Ford shut down production of the 351C engine and shipped the tooling to Australia (Those lucky SOB's).

In a year Ford found it couldn't keep up with demand for 351W engines so it took the 400 block and put in a new crank and rods to shorten the stroke and reduce the displacement back down to 351 CID. They called this abomination the 351M.

Stupidest thing Ford ever did was to discontinue the 351 Cleveland.

351CJ · Dec 9, 2003

forpit2000gt said:
Thanks for the info, I believe I was told this years ago. 289 and 302 block same, different stroke.?? same with 429 and 460, same block , you get the addition displacement from bore and stroke. I never thought about the mod motor, I thought it was all by itself, a mod motor. Technically, it may be the end results of Mazda being involved with Ford, or at least someone has paid attention to the imports at some time or another..( is that blasphemy???)

The 289 & 302 have very similar blocks both with a 4.00" bore. The difference in displacement is due to the stroke.

Same with the 429 / 460, they have the same block and same bore, just a different stroke.

The Modular V8 Family has nothing to do with Mazda. The idea of the Modular family was that the same basic engine configuration could be made as a V6, V8, V8, or V12 using the same bore spacing and basic engine geometry. In addition different heads, SOHC, DOHC could be bolted onto the same blocks. Much of the same production tooling could be used on different engine models.

The V6 version of the Mod motor never saw the light of day as 90 degree V's do not make for good V6 engines, too big, too heavy and requries split rod journals to get an even firing order.

As you guys are aware, the V8 and V10 mod motors are the only ones that made it into production.

351CJ · Dec 9, 2003

lwkauble said:
Actually, it goes like this:

in 1962 came the 406/427 Single cam motors. The significantly different cammer 427 SOHC was banned from NASCAR because of unfair advantages.

1966 uhsered in the 428 a low reving high torque motor originally designed for station wagon and family car use such as galaxie.

Actually that is not quite corrcect.

In 1962 the 406 was introduced. It is a pushrod engine. 4.13 bore x 3.78 stroke.

In 1963 the bore was increased to 4.23" making it 425 CID, but Ford called it a 427.

The 406 and 427 were intended as race car engines. They had solid lifters and used the famous side oiler block.

In 1965 the 427 SOHC Cammer came out. It was never sold in a production car and is was never raced in NASCAR. NASCAR made a decision in 1965 to NEVER allow OHC engines. A decision is still sticks with today. You could buy a 427 Cammer as a crate engine at your local Ford dealer.

The 428 was introduced in 1966. Since it's bore is bigger than its stroke, 4.13 x 3.98, you can't exactly call it a long stroke station wagon engine. In fact most of the famed 427 Shelby Cobras had 428 engines. You only got the 427 side oiler if you bought the race model of the Cobra. The street 427 Cobras came with 428 engines.

A somewhat popular mod. for 427 engines is to put the 428 crank in it which gives you 447 CID and a lot more low end torque.

Slithering_Joe · Dec 9, 2003

351CJ said:
90 degree V's do not make for good V6 engines

What about GM's 4.3L V6?

forpit2000gt · Dec 9, 2003

Slithering_Joe said:
The mod motors are wide because the height of the heads are huge since the cams sit on top.

The V8's you speak of above from Ford are ALL 90 degrees. In fact, I can't think of any V8 (Ford, GM, Chrysler...) that isn't 90 deg. Not sure about the small V8s like the SHO and the LS for example.

The term "big block" and "smal block" are old school terms and really don't apply to the modular motors.

SHO engine is a Yamaha

Slithering_Joe · Dec 9, 2003

forpit2000gt said:
SHO engine is a Yamaha

And your point is?

forpit2000gt · Dec 9, 2003

that it is not a Ford Engine, also I will check to be sure but I don't believe all the engines are 90 deg v. Where do you get your info... now I am wondering If I am correct. I have not built many engines, but I have torn a lot down for others. I seems that most were about 60 deg v.

demonspeed · Dec 10, 2003

351CJ said:
The 351M is bastard engine.

Interesting... My buddy has one in his 79 Broncho.

Slithering_Joe · Dec 10, 2003

forpit2000gt said:
that it is not a Ford Engine, also I will check to be sure but I don't believe all the engines are 90 deg v. Where do you get your info... now I am wondering If I am correct. I have not built many engines, but I have torn a lot down for others. I seems that most were about 60 deg v.

It may be built by Yamaha but there are quite a bit Fords with them in it. You must be tearing down a lot V6's then.

Roger Ramjet · Dec 10, 2003

Monkie said:
I still think its dumb as hell that Ford has a 4.6L V8. It should ATLEAST be a 5.4L V8 since it has OHCs.

I'm with you!

I keep asking why Ford would want 2 different deck height blocks. Seems dumb to me! Different bores or strokes on the same block makes more sense.

1badII · Dec 10, 2003

demonspeed said:
Interesting... My buddy has one in his 79 Broncho.

They're good truck engines. They make good low end torque.

Are the 4.6's and 5.4's big blocks or small blocks?

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