Brake bleeding
- Thread starter JTGrant
- Start date
GOLDENPONY
Founding Member
Does anybody know why you shouldn't use a vaccum bleeder on our cars? I used one on my old 2000 GT with no problems. It had ABS brakes.
mustangmike6996
5 Year Member
bleeding with a vacuum pump...
if you use a vacuum bleeder it will cause bubbles to form in the ABS module.
if you use a vacuum bleeder it will cause bubbles to form in the ABS module.
I looked at the 2007 factory service manual and it didn't say anything about NOT using a vacuum bleeder.
The two types of bleeding covered were using the traditional 2 person method and using a pressure bleeder. I've used a vacuum bleeder on a 2003 E-250 w/ ABS and my 2000 Crown Vic w/ ABS and Trac Ctrl. Of course, there's also using the Ford diagnostic tool to cycle the ABS pump.
The vacuum bleeder works kind of weird on my 2000 Crown Vic because 2 wheels seem like there's an air leak, while 2 wheels bleed normally (slow vacuum drop). I checked the bleeder screw threads and even coated it to prevent air from seeping in to no avail.
Does anyone have any data/info on not using a vacuum bleeder tool on the S197 Mustangs? I can always go out and buy the pressure bleeder but does anyone know if the S197 brake fluid reservoir cap uses 2 prongs or 3 prongs?
The two types of bleeding covered were using the traditional 2 person method and using a pressure bleeder. I've used a vacuum bleeder on a 2003 E-250 w/ ABS and my 2000 Crown Vic w/ ABS and Trac Ctrl. Of course, there's also using the Ford diagnostic tool to cycle the ABS pump.
The vacuum bleeder works kind of weird on my 2000 Crown Vic because 2 wheels seem like there's an air leak, while 2 wheels bleed normally (slow vacuum drop). I checked the bleeder screw threads and even coated it to prevent air from seeping in to no avail.
Does anyone have any data/info on not using a vacuum bleeder tool on the S197 Mustangs? I can always go out and buy the pressure bleeder but does anyone know if the S197 brake fluid reservoir cap uses 2 prongs or 3 prongs?
From what I've read here, most people who do object to the vacuum bleeders do so because they can potentially introduce air into the brake system because the vacuum seal can break, and the argument is that it's just not worth the risk to one of your most critical safety systems.
Some people seem to really like the speed bleeders, you can see here:
http://www.speedbleeder.com/
Some people seem to really like the speed bleeders, you can see here:
http://www.speedbleeder.com/
That concern is a non-issue. The vacuum seal actually makes it difficult to break the seal on the bleeder screw.
The speed bleeder is a neat idea, but the more parts you put into the equation, the easier it can fail. The speed bleeders rely on thread sealant to prevent air from seeping back in, which will wear out over time.
I flush and bleed my brake system every year with fresh Prestone DOT 3. I found DOT 4 to be much more hygroscopic than DOT 3, so I stick with the basic stuff.
One problem with the pressure bleeder is if you break the connection between the cap and the bleeder, brake fluid can spray everywhere. Since you are doing it in the engine compartment (next to the hood, fender, etc... such a leak can be disastrous on the paint. This may never happen, but the thought of forcing brake fluid into the reservoir and having the slighest leak can spray brake fluid over the body.
I think I'll stick with the MityVac under the car.
The speed bleeder is a neat idea, but the more parts you put into the equation, the easier it can fail. The speed bleeders rely on thread sealant to prevent air from seeping back in, which will wear out over time.
I flush and bleed my brake system every year with fresh Prestone DOT 3. I found DOT 4 to be much more hygroscopic than DOT 3, so I stick with the basic stuff.
One problem with the pressure bleeder is if you break the connection between the cap and the bleeder, brake fluid can spray everywhere. Since you are doing it in the engine compartment (next to the hood, fender, etc... such a leak can be disastrous on the paint. This may never happen, but the thought of forcing brake fluid into the reservoir and having the slighest leak can spray brake fluid over the body.
I think I'll stick with the MityVac under the car.
It's ok to vacumm bleed the brakes.Ford has never issued anything telling us not to do it.. in fact in the warrenty labor times they assume vacumm bleeding.
toolttime
New Member
It's your car and your neck! If you want to take the easy way out with a cheap vacuum brake bleeding method, have at it.
If you are on a budget, there MUST be someone that can help you bleed the brakes. Both of my kids were proficient and pumping the brake pedal for me by the time they were 8 years old. This is a MUCH less risky approach.
I offer my safe driving wishes for everyone.
If you are on a budget, there MUST be someone that can help you bleed the brakes. Both of my kids were proficient and pumping the brake pedal for me by the time they were 8 years old. This is a MUCH less risky approach.
I offer my safe driving wishes for everyone.
metroplex,
Your time is obviously EXTREMELY valuable to you. With a helper I can go around all four wheels PLUS a hydraulic clutch in about 20 minutes or less. If one can't afford that much time, then they must be working more than the 80 hours that I worked last week.
I have a Motive pressure bleeder that only cost about $50. It applies pressure to the reservoir and adds brake fluid to the reservoir as you go.
WIth the pressure bleeder or the two man method, it seems that it would be faster than ANYTHING that you have to move and reconnect at each wheel.
Additionally a pressure method is much more forgiving in the event that a connection is lost or a bleed screw is left open for a small amount of time.
Continue with your vacuum bleeders if you are that hard up for money, If you are careful, I don't doubt that you can GET BY with it. If you ever get air in the ABS system, however, I can promise that you will start looking for a different method.
Your time is obviously EXTREMELY valuable to you. With a helper I can go around all four wheels PLUS a hydraulic clutch in about 20 minutes or less. If one can't afford that much time, then they must be working more than the 80 hours that I worked last week.
I have a Motive pressure bleeder that only cost about $50. It applies pressure to the reservoir and adds brake fluid to the reservoir as you go.
WIth the pressure bleeder or the two man method, it seems that it would be faster than ANYTHING that you have to move and reconnect at each wheel.
Additionally a pressure method is much more forgiving in the event that a connection is lost or a bleed screw is left open for a small amount of time.
Continue with your vacuum bleeders if you are that hard up for money, If you are careful, I don't doubt that you can GET BY with it. If you ever get air in the ABS system, however, I can promise that you will start looking for a different method.
I take my time with the bleeding. It will take much longer than 20 minutes to flush out the system using the 2-person brake pedal method. I know because I did that for several years and it just wasn't as fast as the vacuum bleeder for removing most/all of the old fluid. Since I do this ever year at the least, I found the vacuum bleeder to be a nice tool!!!
Ever hear of gravity bleeding where the bleeder screw is left OPEN for several hours? You'd have a heart attack if you saw that. I don't like gravity bleeding idea but a lot of shadetree mechanics swear by it.
With a pressure bleeder, you're far more likely to spray brake fluid on the paint when you lose a connection on the hose (I saw the Motive pic at Summit - it has 2 metal hose clamps for the hose connections, gee, I wonder why). With a vacuum bleeder, there's a lot of vacuum in effect which sucks the tube to the bleeder screw. What I do is maintain a lot of vacuum right before I close the screw, then I release the vacuum once the screw is shut tight.
Nice assumption there, but again, refer to gravity bleeding. Lots of people do it with ABS systems and they haven't run into any problems. I'll stick with the tried and true vacuum bleeding method. Also, the brake fluid system isn't entirely sealed. There's a small hole cut in the brake fluid reservoir cap to allow for pressure deviations and for the fluid to expand/contract.
According to the TRW ABS engineers I spoke with, it's not as easy to get air into the ABS module because unless the valves are active, it works like a traditional proportioning valve.
I know what it feels like to get air into the system (leaky caliper brake hose connection on a Dodge aries) and the vacuum bleeder has never given me such a condition, nor have I ever read/heard of this condition on a properly maintained system using a vacuum bleeder.
Can you provide some sources of people having problems with vacuum bleeder tools introducing air into their ABS systems?
I was going to give the Motive bleeder a try anyhow, since you can't have too many tools.
Ever hear of gravity bleeding where the bleeder screw is left OPEN for several hours? You'd have a heart attack if you saw that. I don't like gravity bleeding idea but a lot of shadetree mechanics swear by it.
With a pressure bleeder, you're far more likely to spray brake fluid on the paint when you lose a connection on the hose (I saw the Motive pic at Summit - it has 2 metal hose clamps for the hose connections, gee, I wonder why). With a vacuum bleeder, there's a lot of vacuum in effect which sucks the tube to the bleeder screw. What I do is maintain a lot of vacuum right before I close the screw, then I release the vacuum once the screw is shut tight.
Nice assumption there, but again, refer to gravity bleeding. Lots of people do it with ABS systems and they haven't run into any problems. I'll stick with the tried and true vacuum bleeding method. Also, the brake fluid system isn't entirely sealed. There's a small hole cut in the brake fluid reservoir cap to allow for pressure deviations and for the fluid to expand/contract.
According to the TRW ABS engineers I spoke with, it's not as easy to get air into the ABS module because unless the valves are active, it works like a traditional proportioning valve.
I know what it feels like to get air into the system (leaky caliper brake hose connection on a Dodge aries) and the vacuum bleeder has never given me such a condition, nor have I ever read/heard of this condition on a properly maintained system using a vacuum bleeder.
Can you provide some sources of people having problems with vacuum bleeder tools introducing air into their ABS systems?
I was going to give the Motive bleeder a try anyhow, since you can't have too many tools.
I guarantee you, that I can flush a quart of brake fluid through the system in 20 minutes with the two person method.
Now, has the chief goal in this thread changed from how to bleed/flush brakes PROPERLY, to how to do it QUICKLY?
If you are worried about losing connection with a pressure bleeder, you are either not being careful or using some home made connection.
The MOST important thing about flushing brakes is much like the most important thing about changing oil, JUST DO IT! If you can make a vacuum bleeder work properly then more power to you, but keep the brake and clutch systems flushed. Do it no less often than every two years. It will pay back great dividends.
Now, has the chief goal in this thread changed from how to bleed/flush brakes PROPERLY, to how to do it QUICKLY?
If you are worried about losing connection with a pressure bleeder, you are either not being careful or using some home made connection.
The MOST important thing about flushing brakes is much like the most important thing about changing oil, JUST DO IT! If you can make a vacuum bleeder work properly then more power to you, but keep the brake and clutch systems flushed. Do it no less often than every two years. It will pay back great dividends.
I use fresh DOT 3 every year with a vacuum bleeder. As long as I can remember, the vacuum bleeder has been the preferred method. Now that Ford and many OEMs switched over to a nice sealed container as a reservoir, the pressure bleeders have become more popular.
You have strongly asserted that vacuum bleeding is the WRONG method for the brakes, but you have not provided any sources for this.
As for proper brake bleeding: vacuum, pressure, or the 2-person method will work fine especially if you want to properly bleed and flush your ABS hydraulic system.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/bf90347.htm
You have strongly asserted that vacuum bleeding is the WRONG method for the brakes, but you have not provided any sources for this.
As for proper brake bleeding: vacuum, pressure, or the 2-person method will work fine especially if you want to properly bleed and flush your ABS hydraulic system.
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2003/bf90347.htm
Don't you DARE believe that you do not need to flush/bleed your system as a preventive maintenance step! If you leave the same fluid in the system year after year, you will corrode the system. Brake fluid is hygroscopic meaning that it absorbs moisture from the air. The moisture eventually corrodes the system.
It may not ever need bleeding, but it needs to be flushed. Bleeding is the process of REMOVING air from the system. Flushing is the process of replacing the moisture laden, dirty fluid with fresh.
Vacuum bleeding with one of the cheap hand pumped gadgets will work okay to FLUSH the system AS LONG AS you don't break the connection in the process. The PROBLEM with vacuum bleeding with a hand pumped gadget is that there is not enough volume to remove the air from the low part of the system faster than the bubbles can rise.
If you were to contrive a system with a high volume vacuum pump and you had a reliable connection then it might be a plausible method.
BTW, pressure bleeding is nothing new. My dad had a pressure bleeder in his shop in the fifties. The reservoirs have ALWAYS been tight enough for pressure bleeding.
It may not ever need bleeding, but it needs to be flushed. Bleeding is the process of REMOVING air from the system. Flushing is the process of replacing the moisture laden, dirty fluid with fresh.
Vacuum bleeding with one of the cheap hand pumped gadgets will work okay to FLUSH the system AS LONG AS you don't break the connection in the process. The PROBLEM with vacuum bleeding with a hand pumped gadget is that there is not enough volume to remove the air from the low part of the system faster than the bubbles can rise.
If you were to contrive a system with a high volume vacuum pump and you had a reliable connection then it might be a plausible method.
BTW, pressure bleeding is nothing new. My dad had a pressure bleeder in his shop in the fifties. The reservoirs have ALWAYS been tight enough for pressure bleeding.
MBDiagMan said:
No one said it was new. It has just become more popular due to the nice and clean sealed reservoirs we have. My 81 T-bird had a rectangular open reservoir similar to the old-school reservoirs. Pressure bleeder adapters for such reservoirs would take more time to set up/install than it takes to bleed/flush the lines!!
Vacuum bleeders have been around for decades as well. No one had any problems with them back then, and some folks choose to use gravity bleeding.
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