C4 to Aod swap

[geostang351]

I have installed a 351W into my '68 coup. The motor is from an '87 Crown Vic LTD cop cruiser. The C4 is a 74 that has been rebuilt. When I originally put the 351 and C4 together, the bell housing was too small (I found and installed and larger bell housing to mate the motot and tranny.
I have located an AOD out of an 89 Mercury Grand Marquis. I know the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis are basically the same car so the marriage of the tranny and motor SHOULD be good. Will I have issues with the two mating together at the bell housing location? The Marquis is a 302 car, if that helps.
Thanks for your help!

 

[84convertablegt]

u shouldnt, the 351w and 302 have the same 6 bolt mounting locations on the back of the motor. the key for you will be getting the right torque converter and flywheel. u will probably need a 50oz. balance flywheel with the aod bolt pattern since its a late model engine. u will also need either the late model aod torque converter, but now is a really good time to spend the $$$ and get a new one. dont forget about all the aod issues, i.e. driveshaft yoke length, tv cable adaptment, crossmember change, shifter issues, etc. id take as much as you can from the donor car, and youll still have to buy more. just wondering, why the convert to the aod, is it the overdrive?

 

[Rollinns]

Once you get the flexplate weight issues figured out and the torque converter chosen there shouldn't be any problems on that end of the tranny.

If you are rebuilding the AOD, I highly recommend this place:

http://baumannengineering.com/

Extremely knowledgable, and very courteous. They talk about a bunch of AOD issues and their fixes, I recommend at least replacing the c-Servo with an A-Servo and getting the AODE overdrive band both help alot. Read their AOD pages and it should make more sense.

 

[Tubo(2-bo)]

Let's see gas $2.72 a gal. An AOD w/3.50 diff gives better performance than a C-4 w/2.80, and better better gas milage. AOD's can now be built to handle high horese power, And you just know gas prices are going higher, and are never really gonna drop ever again. AOD sounds like a good choice to me.

 

[geostang351]

84Vert, why do u think the 74 c4 bell housing was smaller then bell housing I have on it now?

The flex plate is the one that came with the 351W. Its a large one. How do I determine how much it weighs (everyone will say remove it and throw it on a scale)

The torque convertor on there now is only 1000 miles old and seems to be larger then the original c4 that's sits in the corner. Can I reuse this relatively new Torgue Convertor?
The Aod is an over drive unit, and I have open 3.00 gears. Want to put in 3.73 or 3.80 traction-lock.

Rollins, The only thing I haven't had my hands on, on this car is the tranny: too complicated for me. What is the A to C band stuff? And I believe the AODE is a 94 up tranny incorporating electronics (i think). THis is an '89.

Thx Tubo3!

 

[redhotcomet]

I thought the 302 and the 351W had the same bellhousing pattern. I also think that some of the early 289's had five bolt bellhousings. Maybe this was the reason you had to change bellhousings on the C4?

You might have a problem with the headers you're running. I'm pretty sure no oen makes long tubes for use with an AOD. And seeing as how the AOD is wider than a C4, you are gonna have problems.

 

[geostang351]

Redhot, You make a good point with the bell housing change. Can be but don't remember.

I agree with you on the exhaust issue. I plan on going with 3 chamber Flows as the 2 chambers are too loud for the kids and neighborhood (although it sounds awesome with 280 duration!) When these are changed, I'll have them reroute the exhaust. Will the collectors be in the way or the pipe between the collectors and mufflers? What will interfere?

 

[Rollinns]

Get ready for some alphabet soup

I should have given direct links to the pages I mentioned. From the front page it appears their site is the same but the have changed it quite a bit so here is more info on the stuff I mentioned:

This has info on the Overdrive servo upgrade: (srcoll to the bottom, but all of it is good reading)
http://www.baumannengineering.com/aodsupgr.htm

Here's the info for the 2-inch Wide Overdrive Band Kit for AOD Transmission:
(scroll to the bottom again, this also explains why this is a good upgrade)
http://www.baumannengineering.com/aodcat.htm

Installing the larger overdrive servo puts more pressure on the overdrive band, reducing slippage under heavy throttle conditions, therefore extending the life of the O/D band and the transmission (less heat because the O/D band is not slipping). The AODE is an electronically controlled tranny but the AODE is basically a modified AOD and the AODE band will fit in the AOD without any problems. The AOD band is 1.5" wide while the AODE band is 2" wide, which gives 33% more holding power than the stock AOD band. I have an A-servo and the AODE band in mine and have no problems with the tranny. The servo can be done just by dropping the pan and the valve body, but installing the AODE band requires pulling the tranny apart, so I'd install it during a rebuild. The Baumann guys were very helpful and courteous when I called with my AOD questions and didn't seems to be bothered at all. I'd spend some time on their site reading all you can before you install your AOD w/o a rebuild.

Automatic transmissions seem very complicated but its all nuts and bolts, buy a rebuild book and video and go through them a few times before you decide if you want to tackle it yourself. It could be very rewarding to be able to do it all yourself especially if you say this is the only part you haven't had your hands on. Books and Videos are cheap, knowledge is priceless

I have full length Hooker Comps on mine, they are very close. I'd like to fab up some heatshields for the tranny or the lower part of the header but I haven't had a problem for the last 5 years. These worked with both a carbed and an EFI setup. I do not have a 'H' or 'X' pipe so I cannot comment on that.

 

[Edbert]

You might have a problem with the headers you're running. I'm pretty sure no oen makes long tubes for use with an AOD. And seeing as how the AOD is wider than a C4, you are gonna have problems.

You may have trouble but will probably be fine. I put hedmann elite's on my 351W/AOD combo, they fit fine in my 67 vert.

http://www.edbert.net/randp.htm

 

[65fastback2+2]

u will probably need a 50oz. balance flywheel

if im not wrong (its happened before) all 351's are 28oz balance

 

[geostang351]

Edbert, Great Pic! I'll take a picture tonight and post it to give you an idea. Do you think I can use my existing Convertor for the AOD? Again, its 1000 mi. old. The studs will line up onbviously with the flex plate (if I can use that(can I?)) but will the Convertor slide onto the tranny shaft?

 

[Edbert]

Edbert, Great Pic! I'll take a picture tonight and post it to give you an idea. Do you think I can use my existing Convertor for the AOD? Again, its 1000 mi. old. The studs will line up onbviously with the flex plate (if I can use that(can I?)) but will the Convertor slide onto the tranny shaft?

All AOD converters will fit, so unless the converter you mention is from a c4/c6/fmx it should be fine. 1,000 miles is nothing to a converter, are you sure of the stall rating and that the rating is appropriate for your engine's power curve? When you slip the converter onto the input shaft make SURE it is seated all the way, there should be at least two 'clicks' where it slips onto the shaft. Failing to seat it completely will prevent you from connecting it to the bellhousing and flexplate anyhow, so You cannot drive off with it wrong. But if you try to mount it while it is not all the way on you'll have to pull it back out/off and do it all over again. Also, another common mistake that can ruin you...make sure the converter is filled with ATF before you install it! RUnning it while dry will ruin it.

The C4 has a different flex plate than the AOD, but to change it out you'll not only need the correct flex plate, but also the correct block plate. That is the thin sheet that gets sandwiched in between the block and the tranny.

 

[Dr_Pain]

I'm pretty sure no one makes long tubes for use with an AOD. And seeing as how the AOD is wider than a C4, you are gonna have problems.

Not true

Anyone doubting me???? Edbert has pics of some aftermarket headers (Hedman I think) clearing his 351w/AOD combo in a 67 mustang. I needed a bigger tube size on my 427SB/AOD, so found a step down 1 5/8 to 1 3/4 going to a 3 in collector (made for low clearance since I am dropping the car). A little stiff but talk about clearance Seriously speaking, I will hit my 7qt. Canton oil pan before I hit the headers. Would share pics but they are getting Jet-coated and will be out of for a couple weeks.

 

[Edbert]

Not true

Anyone doubting me???? Edbert has pics of some aftermarket headers (Hedman I think) clearing his 351w/AOD combo in a 67 mustang. I needed a bigger tube size on my 427SB/AOD, so found a step down 1 5/8 to 1 3/4 going to a 3 in collector (made for low clearance since I am dropping the car). A little stiff but talk about clearance Seriously speaking, I will hit my 7qt. Canton oil pan before I hit the headers. Would share pics but they are getting Jet-coated and will be out of for a couple weeks.

They are hedmann elites, part number is for a 351W swap, they bolted right in, took me less than an hour for the pair. I did this the weekend after helping a buddy get long tubes into his 2001 WS6, THAT job took 12 hours and much cursing

My 8qt pan is slightly lower than my long tubes, and they are not for "low clearance" situations. Also, if you are doing this in a 65/66 you MAY have clearance issues, but a 67-70 will have tons of room.

 

[redhotcomet]

OK, I'll rephrase that, if you use hedman part # 88300? , 1 5/8 primaries, you are going to have problems...

A pic of the modifications I had to make to my headers. I had to cut the collectors off, bezel the ends and weld them back on to make room for the wider case on the AOD.

I also had to build a shifter linkage, which came out to be quite convoluted. I don't have any pictures unfortunately. I wish I had know there were headers that fit before I violated those ones. Oh well, they're in now.

 

[redhotcomet]

I forgot to say that the later SBFs had six bolt bellhousings, and the 65 & earlier 289's had five bolt. This is what I remember reading, no guarantee that its true...

 

[Edbert]

True, FoMoCo changed the bolt pattern during the 65 model year (I don't know what month but it probably varies from plant to plant to some degree). The good news is that from 66 until the modular motors came out it remained the same among the Windsor family.

Were those headers you had to modify listed as a 351W swap part?

 

[redhotcomet]

Mine were #88300, for use in a 64-73 Mustang, 260-302 CID.

Hedman part numbers are listed on their site:

www.hedman.com

 

[chepsk8]

My site still has the pics from the 302/AOD I pulled from a mid-80's LTD, and swapped it into my 69.

It may help.

 

[Edbert]

Mine were #88300, for use in a 64-73 Mustang, 260-302 CID.

Gotcha, I was worried there!

The 351 has a taller deck height (duh) which causes the exhaust ports and the header bolts to be higher in relation to the chassis. This necessitates headers that take that into account. Get a set of swap headers and you'll have tons of room in a 67-70.