Cam Advice - What to buy?

[Tripoli]

I am in the market for a pair of cams for my '02 GT (mods in my sig). I am not afraid of losing streetability, even though it is my daily driver. I want the car ready for the quarter mile.

I have all stock internals, and it's going to stay that way for a while (will get new cams when block/internals are upgraded). I figure I can bump my rev limiter up to 6400 or so without any worries, but please correct me if I'm wrong or if it can go even higher. I'm looking to make good power up through 6200 RPM or so (based on how high I can safely rev with the stock internals), and I don't care one bit about losing low-end torque.

I will also be upgrading the springs and getting a tune, so any recommendations there would be appreciated as well.

There were three cams in particular that caught my attention while I've been doing research:
VT Stage 2 Cams
Comp Cams PI XE262AH 2V Cams
Comp Cams PI XE270AH 2V Cams

The Comp Cams PI XE278AH 2V Cams also caught my eye, but it seems like I found too many threads about people having piston to valve contact issues with these, and even with the 270s. Unfortunately none of the info I found about those PTV issues was recent, so I don't know if perhaps Comp has improved their cams to help avoid those issues.

For the record, I am a total newbie when it comes to cams, but I'm trying to educate myself as much as I can. Just to make my life more interesting I was thinking of saving $600 by installing them myself. One thing I often hear people talking about is "degreeing" their cams. I don't quite follow what exactly that entails or how it's done.

But really, the main piece of info I want to get out of this thread for now, is what cam should I buy, or should I get custom grinds, or whatever.

Thanks in advance, guys.

 

[COramprat]

I have the Comp 262's in my NPI car. Gained about 30 RWHP with those. The real kicker is the 1/2 sec I gained at the track after the tune. Went from 14.5 to 14 flats after the dyno tune. Tires got me to 13.8 @ 103 so I still have some work to do on my ET's.

Take a look at the threads I have on our club site. It links to another site that is not allowed to be mentioned here...for some odd reason.

Anyway...read up on the Cam links and it should answer alot of questions.

http://getonitracing.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=25298#25298

 

[trinity_gt]

With cams the general rule is to stay "small": bigger is not always better. 278s might be good for a 7000RPM screamer but for a stock internal 2V they're going to hurt low-end torque, where the engine spends most of its time lugging you around town.

I too have bought (though not yet installed) 262AHs and Comp beehive springs for my 02 GT. I think it's about the mildest cam available as a step-up from the PI cam. Should give a bit of an idle, retain low RPM torque and give a boost near redline. The springs will live with the higher lift the cam offers...


A question I was about to pose is aside from the cams and springs, what else would be good to have on hand before proceeding? I'm ordering a cam spocket set from SHM with the bigger bolts (to fit the Comp cam snout), valve cover and front cover gaskets (just in case), a front main seal (just in case), a fresh crank snout bolt (TTY) but is there anything else?

 

[jasonh_86]

I would go with the VT Stage 2 cams..

I've heard so many ptv contact issues with the Comp Cams, but i'm not 100%.. but there have been issues with them, in which some have had to shave valve reliefs in their pistons

I've never heard of a problem with ptv contact with the vt stage 2's as long as they're installed and timed correctly. I got my VT Stage 2's in last week (not in the car yet) and they look great.. nice quality, no rough edges anywhere. I'm sure Comp Cams are like that too, just never seen a set of them for the 4.6L in person.

I'd give VT Engines a call and see which they say, since they carry all of your choices

 

[COramprat]

A question I was about to pose is aside from the cams and springs, what else would be good to have on hand before proceeding? I'm ordering a cam spocket set from SHM with the bigger bolts (to fit the Comp cam snout), valve cover and front cover gaskets (just in case), a front main seal (just in case), a fresh crank snout bolt (TTY) but is there anything else?

Looks like you have about everything. Read up on how to pull the power steering pump. There is a bolt blocked by one of the PS hoses. Unless you want to pull the hose I just cut the bolt and left it out. Yours being an 02 you should be OK with the timing chain guides and tensioners but check them out to be sure.

Another side note on the 262's...on my car I was running out of pull at about 4800 RPM's...with the 262's I'm up around 5800 before the drop off. Lots of usable range in that 1000 RPM's.

As far as low end torque on a bonkier cam 4.10's take car of that.

 

[Tripoli]

It'd be really helpful if we could see some people's dyno numbers with some of these cams, especially with mods that are similar to mine. I'm not sure exactly how close my shifts are with the 4.10s, but I know they are what is recommended for some of the bigger cams. Again, I'm just looking for good power up to about 6200 RPM.

 

[COramprat]

It'd be really helpful if we could see some people's dyno numbers with some of these cams, especially with mods that are similar to mine. I'm not sure exactly how close my shifts are with the 4.10s, but I know they are what is recommended for some of the bigger cams. Again, I'm just looking for good power up to about 6200 RPM.

I'm pretty close to your mods except for the long tubes...and the PI motor.

01 Steeda has the VT Stage II's...PM him or I'll see if I can get him to comment on his. I think his mods are close to yours.

 

[01Steeda]

Well my cams aren't VT's.. but they are close to their specs.

I made 289 RWHP with a faulty PCM and zero intake mods(stock airbox, TB and plenum).I had another pull that went 292 but cant seem to find the scan of it. I was told with the PCM in working order and a TB and plenum I could have made 315 or so. But I went with the blower before I could get it back to the dyno so we'll never know.

Here is my screwed up dyno sheet.. notice the surging from the pcm pulling timing... and my exhaust clip.


dyno

Sound with flows

all in all the VT would probably make a few HP more than what I have, and Iam strongly considering a swap. I have seen some great results from them. cant go wrong with VT

 

[CanadaStang]

I'm pretty close to your mods except for the long tubes...and the PI motor.

01 Steeda has the VT Stage II's...PM him or I'll see if I can get him to comment on his. I think his mods are close to yours.

Just noticed your 1/4 mile times in your sig, very impressive!!

 

[Tripoli]

Where to buy cams is anther question worth asking. Interestingly enough I don't see VT Stage 2 N/A PI cams on their own website.

 

[jasonh_86]

They should be on there tomorrow or tuesday

 

[TGJ]

There is nothing wrong with the Comp Cams. The problem lies in the factory cam gear, and that being said 100% of every car that has had PTV was due to improper install. That goes for all aftermarket cams.

 

[Tripoli]

OK, I've been trying to find out all the details about these cams and I've come up with the following list. Please let me know if there are any errors or if you can fill in the blanks anywhere.

VT Stage 2 Cams
270/282 @ .006
225/235 @ .050
.560/.575 lift
108/108 LSA
???? RPM, springs, ?.?? gears, tune

Comp Cams PI XE270AH 2V Cams (PTV is tight)
270/??? @ .006
234/238 @ .050
.550/.550 lift
113/113 LSA
1800-5800 RPM, springs, 3.55+ gears, tune, degree cams

VT Stage 1 Cams
???/??? @ .006
224/226 @ .050
.540/.550 lift
110/110 LSA
2500-5500 RPM, tune

Comp Cams PI 262AH 2V Cams
262/??? @ .006
226/230 @ .050
.550/.550 lift
113/113 LSA
1400-5400 RPM

Comp Cams PI XE278AH 2V Cams (PTV issues)
278/272 @ .006
242/246 @ .050
.550/.550 lift
113/113 LSA
2200-6200 RPM, springs, 3.73+ gears, tune

Stock 2000 Mustang GT cams
252/260 @ .006
201/205 @ .050
.500/.529 lift
113/116 LSA

Also a few of my questions are still unanswered:
1. How high can I safely set my rev limiter on stock internals? (I will be installing springs.)
2. What springs should I get?
3. Are PTV contact issues still a problem with the AH270 and stock 2002 Mustang GTs, or is a proper install all that really matters?
4. What does it mean to "degree" your cams?
5. How do you degree your cams?
6. Should I get custom grinds rather than one of the cams listed above? If so, what specs do you recommend?

And new questions...
7. Where is the best place to get a tune near Dallas, TX?
8. What does it cost?
9. Do retunes usually cost full price, or are they usually discounted/free?

One last thing... While I plan on keeping the stock lower intake, I am planning on upgrading to the Accufab throttle body and plenum and possibly a new MAF meter. Any recommendations there?

 

[VTEngines]

Where to buy cams is anther question worth asking. Interestingly enough I don't see VT Stage 2 N/A PI cams on their own website.

Haha...whoops! They are back up now...LOL! When the product quantity gets down to zero...the system automatically de-lists the item. I put them back up manually.

 

[TGJ]

Also a few of my questions are still unanswered:
1. How high can I safely set my rev limiter on stock internals? (I will be installing springs.)

Rods and Pistons are your weak links. I personally would not go over 6500 on the stock rods and pistons.

2. What springs should I get?

Comp, Crower or Manley are all good. Crower and Manley are supposedly better

3. Are PTV contact issues still a problem with the AH270 and stock 2002 Mustang GTs, or is a proper install all that really matters?

Proper install is all that matters and that goes for any after market cam.

5. How do you degree your cams?

A good thread at MD on how to degree cams.
http://forums.************.com/showthread.php?t=55904

One last thing... While I plan on keeping the stock lower intake, I am planning on upgrading to the Accufab throttle body and plenum and possibly a new MAF meter.

You don't need a new MAF.

 

[Tripoli]

Thanks, TGJ. I guessed the modular depot link on the first try.

Setting the rev limiter is something I'd really like to get a few opinions on. I talked to Jim at VT today and he refused to give me a number because of how much it can vary engine to engine. I guess what I'm looking for is what's the lowest RPM you've seen someone have problems with their stock internals. Anyways, I'm not even sure just how high I will even need to rev this thing. The specs on their site say its RPM range is 3000-6500, so I may very well be able to make good use of that extra 250 RPM if I can do it safely. It is my daily driver after all. Don't want to have to explain a bent valve or something to the wife.

I've basically decided on the VT Stage 2s at this point. Everything I've seen leads me to believe they're a little 'safer' than the 270s in terms of their PTV issues, but can quite possibly make more power due to their strictly N/A setup and that lovely LSA.

Based on what Jim at VT recommended, I'd probably go with the Crower or Manley springs. Looking at VT's shop right now, I see a few choices and I'm not sure which would be best for me. I see two sets of Crower springs, one comes with steel retainers, the other with titanium. I'm curious what the advantages/disadvantages of each are, aside from price ($279 vs. $349). For all I know I should just stick with the stock retainers, though I don't see Crower springs without the retainers on their site, only the Manley's.

I don't know too terribly much about my stock intake system, especially the MAF. I'm not even sure how big the stock one is. I could use a little education there if anyone's willing, and it'd be helpful to know why exactly I do/don't need a MAF, TB, plenum, lower intake, etc.

One last thing for tonight: I talked to Dallas Mustang today about the tune I'd need after this install. According to the guy I talked to, I'd need to actually buy a tuner and then have them tune it. I never realized that I'd need to buy the tuner itself...Is that right? If so, what do y'all recommend? I think he said they recommended the "X Cal." I'm assuming that's the SCT X Caliber II.

 

[trinity_gt]

I'm about to schedule my car to go in in about a month to get this stuff installed and find myself getting nervous... I always worry that after such surgery the car will not be as reliable, will make weird noises that'll creep me out etc. It's hard to enjoy a car you're afraid is going to break. Call me paranoid

Aside from the reliability of the replacement valve springs and the installation of the keepers, one of my other concerns regards oil clearances.

Can I just take it on faith that the cam journal diameters on the new cams will be right where they need to be for the cam bearing surfaces on the heads? I can't recall ever reading a post where someone reported a cam knocking due to excessive clearance or wiping out the cylinder head because things are too tight so I guess they're always right...

Someone say something to reassure me

BTW, how are people doing with 262AHs and emissions sniff testing?

 

[01Steeda]

good thread guys.. i like how this was not drug down by product bashing and stuck to the facts for the most part...:SNSign: :SNSign:

 

[COramprat]

Mine rev limiter is set at 6500...bounced off of it several times when I'm not paying attention. My dyno sheet shows I hit my peak at 5800...a full grand after the cam swap...so really I am shifting around 6200 anyway.

We have one of the toughest emmisions tests where I live in Louisiana and I haven't had a problem yet.

As far as springs...no if you go with a mild cam like the Comp 262's ot VT Stage 1. Yes with anything bigger. I've had no issues on my high milage engine with the 262's.

The gains between the Stage 1's (or similar) and Stage 2's (and similar) vary from car to car but most numbers I've seen have been in the 7-10HP area. Since they cost the same might as well get that extra bump...but add the expense of valve springs.

Breathing is always a factor. The more HP you add the more air you would like to have. The lower intake is fine...I have the PI on my 96 along with a Trickflow Plenum and 70mm TB. Dyno'd at 213 compared to a nearly same modded car except for the TB and plenum and intake at a dyno day who dyno'd at 191...most of that being the PI intake but I'd bet the TB and plenum got me about 7-8 of that.

The MAF I have no experience with so I can't comment.

 

[Tripoli]

Glad to see another vote for 6500 RPM rev limiter.

Still a couple important questions left unanswered. Look up the page to my response (post #16). I'm mainly interested in the questions I had about getting a tuner/tune.